"The Talk"

[Unregistered]

There is plenty of time after the fact to discuss whether the officers conduct was appropriate. When the encounter with the police is happening, is not the time. We are trying to tell you don't resist and follow commands during the encounter, and you and I will not get hurt.

On the street is the perfect time to question authority (when it warrants being questioned). Why should the fear of escalation silence their right to go about their business?

Supervisors are usually not present to witness the encounter and will always side with the officer regardless of the complaint. The complaint is not documented nor is the entire process explained. It's very self-serving.

Not only that, if the complaint ever does make it past the street supervisor, guess who does the investigating? Your agency. Again, self-serving. No government entity should ever be investigating itself.

I am not questioning your authority as a law enforcement officer when it is just. I am questioning unlawful orders or commands given and what happens to citizens who call you out.

Most people are uneducated when it comes to their rights and your limitations. However, some people are and many officers don't know how to handle any criticism or any form of discussion. Perhaps except you.

I'm not even talking about a citizen physically resisting arrest and when the officer uses necessary force. I am talking about a non-violent person questioning authority and the officer escalates the encounter to the point of violence.

You get the training. You're required to operate under the scope of the law and policy. You're paid with our taxes. You are accountable to the public. The badge is not a blank check to act however you please.

Law enforcement was once a noble profession. It's not BLM's fault, it's not the media's fault, and it's not the liberals fault. Sometimes you get crapped on by the court of public opinion but sometimes you deserve it.

I thankfully know officers, including kin, who have great respect for the laws of their country, state, locality, and strive to operate in accordance to agency policy. They respect the badge and what it stands for.

If you try to spout that you're Tampa's finest then start acting like it. I am no more anti-LEO than anti-family. When my child screws up, they're disciplined. Not coddled and told they get a pass because I love them and they're special.

This is exactly the mentality that law enforcement officers privately cite as the reason of the disrespect of law enforcement in many communities. Children learning to behave as little *******s due to lack of supervision.

Sorry for the ramblings and thank you for allowing me to voice my opinion on the matter.

[Unregistered]

There is plenty of time after the fact to discuss whether the officers conduct was appropriate. When the encounter with the police is happening, is not the time. We are trying to tell you don't resist and follow commands during the encounter, and you and I will not get hurt.

On the street is the perfect time to question authority (when it warrants being questioned). Why should the fear of escalation silence their right to go about their business?

Supervisors are usually not present to witness the encounter and will always side with the officer regardless of the complaint. The complaint is not documented nor is the entire process explained. It's very self-serving.

Not only that, if the complaint ever does make it past the street supervisor, guess who does the investigating? Your agency. Again, self-serving. No government entity should ever be investigating itself.

I am not questioning your authority as a law enforcement officer when it is just. I am questioning unlawful orders or commands given and what happens to citizens who call you out.

Most people are uneducated when it comes to their rights and your limitations. However, some people are and many officers don't know how to handle any criticism or any form of discussion. Perhaps except you.

I'm not even talking about a citizen physically resisting arrest and when the officer uses necessary force. I am talking about a non-violent person questioning authority and the officer escalates the encounter to the point of violence.

You get the training. You're required to operate under the scope of the law and policy. You're paid with our taxes. You are accountable to the public. The badge is not a blank check to act however you please.

Law enforcement was once a noble profession. It's not BLM's fault, it's not the media's fault, and it's not the liberals fault. Sometimes you get crapped on by the court of public opinion but sometimes you deserve it.

I thankfully know officers, including kin, who have great respect for the laws of their country, state, locality, and strive to operate in accordance to agency policy. They respect the badge and what it stands for.

If you try to spout that you're Tampa's finest then start acting like it. I am no more anti-LEO than anti-family. When my child screws up, they're disciplined. Not coddled and told they get a pass because I love them and they're special.

This is exactly the mentality that law enforcement officers privately cite as the reason of the disrespect of law enforcement in many communities. Children learning to behave as little *******s due to lack of supervision.

Sorry for the ramblings and thank you for allowing me to voice my opinion on the matter.

[Unregistered]

Can you provide me an example of an unlawful order which would need questioning in the street? It's very easy to throw out broad statements. I'm asking for very specific orders you think are unlawful.

[Unregistered]

Can you provide me an example of an unlawful order which would need questioning in the street? It's very easy to throw out broad statements. I'm asking for very specific orders you think are unlawful.

All examples are TPD examples...

#1 Someone else's YouTube video that struck my interest.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kx6lEpUamzk
Watch the video. Man unlawfully detained for taking photos of a base from off base property. Surely bating. But taking photos of the front of a base while standing in a public area off base property is not a crime. Citizen should have not been detained.

#2 Personal account.
Routine traffic stop. I hand over my DL, hands on steering wheel, polite, yada yada. Officer asks if I have a firearm. I say yes and hand over my permit (not required to disclose in FL unless asked). Also the firearm wasn't being concealed on my person therefore I didn't need a permit to transport a firearm in this manner. Firearm was in a closed bag on the floor behind my driver seat. Officer takes it upon himself without consent to open the rear door, remove my firearm from my bag, and run it for wants. He puts it back unloaded, with all the ammo out of the mag and loose in the bag, and sends me on my way. Nothing gives law enforcement the right to take my weapon from me, especially when it's not on my person, not readily accessible, and when there's no reasonable suspicion that my firearm is stolen. I remember seeing a video of a FHP trooper doing this very thing to someone and they were either terminated or had resigned.

#3 Personal account.
I came home from work with an active search for a suspect in my neighborhood. A sergeant at the entrance was checking ID's. Even though I am not required by law to show my ID unless I am being stopped for a crime, I present my ID happily so I could get home. My license did not show the current address as I had moved there three days prior. Sergeant says I am not allowed into the neighborhood because I can't prove I live there. I explain my recent move. He states that I am violation of the law for not updating my home address. I tell him that state law says I have 30 days. I ask for a supervisor. He gets into my face and screams "I AM A SUPERVISOR." My response is that you are a sergeant and I know for a fact that the district has a lieutenant on the street. He refused to call the lieutenant and so did the district officer when I called. Brighthouse and some kind of tradesman were allowed to enter without their ID's being checked. I asked why and the officer said "BECAUSE I CAN AND THEY HAVE BUSINESS IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD." So, what gives law enforcement the right to set up an impromptu checkpoint in front of a neighborhood, request identification, and make arbitrary decisions who can access public streets? Nothing. Guy reminds me of or could have been the same hot head officer from example 1 video.

#4 Account from a family member.
Family member was with other family at a restaurant. I was not present. Upon leaving they witnessed three officers wrestling some high idiot to the ground in the parking lot. Family member had a video camera in the car and started recording the incident. Officers ended up gaining control after taser deployment. Officer approached the family member and demanded the camera as "evidence." Family member said they were willing to make a copy but would not agree to surrendering the entire camera and the card. Another family member, a retired LEO, told the officer the camera could only be seized with a warrant or due to exigent circumstances. Officer could not articulate that the clips would be altered or destroyed, especially if we weren't connected to the incident and that they had offered to make a copy on site. I do not remember what the response was. Family walked away, got in their car, and started to leave with another officer moved their car and blocked them in. Officer says they're being stopped for dark tint. Officer demands ID from everyone. Driver, the retired LEO family member, asks if this is in retaliation for changing their mind about the footage. Officer says no, and reiterates it's due to the tint violation. Retired LEO family member asks how can this be done since they were on private property and the vehicle hasn't been seen driving on public roads. Officer suddenly hands back ID's and sends everyone on their way.

I could go own with more personal examples but this board is not my life. To make it clear... I've never been arrested. Nor do I commit crimes, except if you want to color me a criminal for that speeding. What I learned is that some case law, not out of Florida, but other states, allow citizens to resist an officer if the arrest is unlawful. I am not advocating violence against cops, but I bet the officers there are much more careful in their work and citizen's rights are violated much less often. I haven't had an officer touch me, but I can see how threatened officers are when someone challenges their authority. It's actually quite terrifying that some of you have such a short fuse. No doubt, some take it to far and go hands-on when they have no reason to. I am sure if I were anything but white, I'd be dead.

At my workplace, I see a lot of open discussion about the quality of our work, the bad apples are turned in to management, and discipline is handed out swiftly and justly. The people doing the wrong things are a poor reflection of our entire office and compromises our trust with customers. This is something I don't see in law enforcement. I see a bunch of people who think that they can't possibly do anything wrong. I know there are those who go into LE with good intentions, but the law enforcement culture punishes those who turn in their own so you remain silent or become a bad apple by nature. This is why the public doesn't trust nor respect law enforcement. But what do I know? I don't work in the profession so I can't have an opinion... is what most of you are thinking.

[Unregistered]

On the street is the perfect time to question authority (when it warrants being questioned). Why should the fear of escalation silence their right to go about their business?

Supervisors are usually not present to witness the encounter and will always side with the officer regardless of the complaint. The complaint is not documented nor is the entire process explained. It's very self-serving.

Not only that, if the complaint ever does make it past the street supervisor, guess who does the investigating? Your agency. Again, self-serving. No government entity should ever be investigating itself.

I am not questioning your authority as a law enforcement officer when it is just. I am questioning unlawful orders or commands given and what happens to citizens who call you out.

Most people are uneducated when it comes to their rights and your limitations. However, some people are and many officers don't know how to handle any criticism or any form of discussion. Perhaps except you.

I'm not even talking about a citizen physically resisting arrest and when the officer uses necessary force. I am talking about a non-violent person questioning authority and the officer escalates the encounter to the point of violence.

You get the training. You're required to operate under the scope of the law and policy. You're paid with our taxes. You are accountable to the public. The badge is not a blank check to act however you please.

Law enforcement was once a noble profession. It's not BLM's fault, it's not the media's fault, and it's not the liberals fault. Sometimes you get crapped on by the court of public opinion but sometimes you deserve it.

I thankfully know officers, including kin, who have great respect for the laws of their country, state, locality, and strive to operate in accordance to agency policy. They respect the badge and what it stands for.

If you try to spout that you're Tampa's finest then start acting like it. I am no more anti-LEO than anti-family. When my child screws up, they're disciplined. Not coddled and told they get a pass because I love them and they're special.

This is exactly the mentality that law enforcement officers privately cite as the reason of the disrespect of law enforcement in many communities. Children learning to behave as little *******s due to lack of supervision.

Sorry for the ramblings and thank you for allowing me to voice my opinion on the matter.

You are most welcome Andrew Warren.

[Unregistered]

Here is one of the problems that occur on a daily basis. Armed Robbery just occurred, W/M in his late teens early 20's driving a small newer model blue car, time lapse two minutes. Leo's may make 20 stops of people meeting this general description, none of them may turn out to be the suspect. During these encounters with these 20 people, we know that the suspect was armed. We don't know if you are the suspect, so our treatment of each one of these stops is at a heightened level because of the weapon. You are one of the twenty people we stopped. You know you just ran to the store for bread and are on your way home and have done nothing wrong when the lights come on. The police shout commands at you to turn your vehicle off and keep your hands in view. Well you know you haven't done anything wrong so you tell the police you haven't done anything wrong and you don't have to do what they tell you, so you reach under your seat, when your hand appears a silver object is in it. The officer fires and it is later determined to be a cell phone. The officer has shot a innocent man all because you did not comply with keeping your hands in sight of the officer. The law protects the officer because the courts realize that general descriptions are not absolute and that many citizens will be temporarily stopped until they can be identified and discounted as the suspect. So you are technically right to say you haven't done anything wrong so I'm not going to follow commands. But you don't know what the officer knows. No winners here. That's why your rights that you refer to cannot be debated during the encounter. After the fact, you can have someone review the matter. In this scenario, "what a reasonable officer would do under the same circumstances" is the standard. So you can readily see how the officer may be legally justified in taking the actions he did, even though a innocent person was shot. Complying with commands, and not resisting are not debatable when its happening a split second decisions have to be made.

[Unregistered]

That example, although a rarity, is one I can actually understand.

[Unregistered]

That example, although a rarity, is one I can actually understand.

I am not one of the earlier posters and I can only assume you are the individual that cited the earlier examples from your family and personal experiences. I have to say that I respect your ability to admit that you understand that officer's example. You are correct, it may not happen every shift, but from someone that has been doing this job over twenty years it actually happens more than you think. It may not always be a robbery with a gun, but there are countless crimes being called in or reported with limited suspect/vehicle info every single day. I am glad that you understand the difference in what "you" know versus what "we" know, since it is not always the same.

I would also like to say that your earlier examples are not the norm for most of us. I have always respected and even encouraged citizens to get trained, permitted and armed. You will not see me searching or removing your weapon from your possession without your consent or permission or a legal reason to do so. Most of the time I do not even ask and just remind you, for all of our safety, to leave it where it is. I have to admit I have seen officers make legal (albeit petty and maybe even retaliatory) stops or comments at people after having entered into an ego or dlck waiving contest. I am not afraid to admit that I too have let my emotions entice me into similar situations. After all, we are just human, and we make mistakes just like anyone else. When it's all said and done, I may have won the battle (since it was legal, just petty) but who really won the war? When you drive away with a poor opinion of me, my agency or my profession did I really "win." The younger me, like most cops, probably doesn't care but, the older me knows that is now why I entered into this. I really don't think any officer that's been here for any significant length of time entered into this career to get back at, hurt or violate people. Those types usually don't make it very long and that is a very good thing. The reality is, we all have bad days. We've all been treated poorly by someone, and while it does not make it right, you never know what that person is dealing with at that time.

While I greatly respect your opinion and appreciate your examples, I have to agree with other posters that on the street is not the time challenge or resist what is going on. Families have buried too many citizens and cops for just that. Of course the sergeant dealing with you is going to tell you that he is the supervisor. He is. Don't waste your time trying to have him call the lieutenant or anyone else to your location. Just follow commands and instructions because you really don't now if you are dealing with the good one or the idiot that slipped through. Believe me they do! Agencies, including TPD have made it as easy as they possibly can for you to contact an Internal Affairs investigator to look into your complaint. They have a direct line where you just pick up a phone at headquarters, Facebook and other social media pages, websites, email addresses and several other ways to get directly to IA. It is so easy to get to IA you really have no reason to waste your time arguing with an officer, sergeant or anyone else in the field. Just get the pertinent name and badge numbers and live to fight another day. I say that both figuratively and literally.

[Unregistered]

Best reply ever

[Unregistered]

Unfortunately, I have no faith in IA and I do assert that citizens but be allowed to challenge LE on the street when their rights are legitimately being violated. It’s up for both parties to not escalate the situation into violence.

Although we can’t agree on everything, I really do appreciate your reply. You be safe.