Directives and application

No a college education didn't help me make my post. Your first post was anti-college. I gave your post credit for the military experience comment, but we certainly disagree on education. However, If you've been in law enforcement for any length of time then you should understand diversity. Diversity refers to more than race, creed, and color. It also refers to other differences people have such as socio-economic factors including their levels of education. We as LEOs have to treat others from diverse backgrounds the same. I respect you for your experience, but don't go bashing others because they are different (meaning college educated).

You should have a little more empathy for those officers that strive to attain higher educational goals. Instead of going home and watching tv or posting negative thoughts on this forum they attend college. Not only do they attend college, but they also juggle their home lives, families, and work. Well -rounded in experience and education. They will need the latter to compete in today's job market once they retire or leave law enforcement. They are preparing for their futures. By the tone of your post it appears you will be completely retired after law enforcement and the education thing would be a complete waste of your time.

I am sorry I was snarky back.

Let me ask: If we respect all levels of education the same, why do we pay more for those that can afford college and why can't non-college educated people be promoted?

Contrary to what you believe many do not go to college to better themselves they do it because they are forced to....that is not education and that is not the pursuit of knowledge.

If someone is already the best cop or a great cop, why make them waste money on school. Taking classes on the internet or attending clown college is not impressive and it has done nothing for the people affected by crime.

It seems that a great number of people are focused on the big retirement job, so much so that they don't focus on apply their great intellects to fighting crime which is what we are supposed to be doing...not teaching college, locked in the same paradigm, making mental copies of ideas we learned from someone else.

I guess I applaud the fact that families are ignored and victims are short changed. No data can be presented that crime rates drop or service improves with college educated officers. Actually there is a study (Beyerly 2009-NIJ) coming out that shows officer quality and agency quality suffers as education escalates.

PS: Many of the college papers here written by or assisted by the uneducated.

This is a stupid discussion. Banter, you will never win this debate. The average person, citizen, council member, business person, law enforcement officer etc... is not going to agree with you that agency administrators should not be college educated. Your position is that people charged with preparing and overseeing a 14 million dollar annual budget, managing multiple generational cultures and running a complex law enforcement operation should have no advanced college training??? The Marine Corp would beg to differ. All their officers must have a college education. You just sank your own argument. Now, if your argument was that the best might be a candidate that is both, perhaps I could agree with you and others likely would as well but your argument on its own is stupid and frankly, in my opinion, shows your lazy.

WE don't pay more money to those that are college educated. The State of Florida provides incentive funding to officers who obtain advanced degrees. The extra money does not come from the state. You are just as capable as the rest of us college educated folks at getting an education. I would guess that you would serve your family more if you concentrated on getting a college degree rather than coming on here trying to convince the entire police profession that college degrees are useless. You sir, likely are going to be very lonely on that branch.

Actually, since you keep bringing it up, the Marines do require college education for officers. Officers only, not all actually. There are senior enlisted without college. But the college doesn't teach them to fly a plane, lead a platoon, kill the enemy....that is training, vocational and specialized, not poetry.


The City Manager has no college .....his budget is big. Not all the Council has college...they are in charge of a budget. Same with Warren Buffet and Bill Gates. So there goes that argument.

Not going to college means you are lazy? I am not lazy. The few minutes I took to post on here this year so far has not teken up all the time I could have used for "college".

You presented no facts or data to refute me. You really didn't undue any of my arguments, nor will I suspect you will. You are right many have been brainwashed into thinking college is needed for this job. I don't know how they got through doing it for hundreds of years without it. I don't know how college makes you a good fighter, talker, investigator, shooter, driver etc....but hey that's the paradigm.....that's just the way I was taught and that's the way we always did it.

Again, computer, mechanical and language skills are more useful than learning what we were already taught in an academy. That is a redundant waste.

I have to say in my experience and opinion, the smartest guys working here don't have college (or just some). It is not a measure of laziness, diversity or intelligence.

What online school did you go to?

Ahh...Nice try. I didn't go online to school but thanks for asking. However, even if I did, I could still get promoted, you couldn't apparently. I call you lazy because you would rather come on here and argue your stupid point rather than do the work and get the degree. The reality, when you were hired, the requirement was there, just get the degree and then show us how smart you are on the next promotional exam.

If I really cared that much for this topic, I would fire up the google and find several of the millions of reason one should try and get a college degree. Forget about the critical thinking and advanced writing that you receive in college that they don't give you in the academy. I will admit, you can be a great street cop without a degree. I will also grant you that you are right, a select few were born with natural leadership ability and common sense to be able to be the Chief of Police without a degree. If that was the case, college would never have been invented. The reality is, any education improves you. I want leaders who care enough about themselves and the profession to take the time to improve themselves. Not thinking up BS reasons for why they shouldn't have to and feeling sorry for themselves that they are being held back for their lack of ambition.

Here's two of many studies on the topic college vs non-college police officers. Research suggests college does help with an officer's overall performance.

Aamodt, Michael G. Research in Law Enforcement Selection. Boca Raton, Florida: Brown Walker Press, 2004. Summarizes 330 studies investigating the validity of methods used to select law enforcement personnel. Concludes that officers with a college education perform better in the academy, receive higher performance ratings on the job, have fewer disciplinary problems, have less absenteeism, and use force less often than their peers without a college education.

Selected Annotated Bibliography on Performance of Officers with Bachelor’s Degrees
reprinted from "College Education and Policing" By Louis Mayo, Ph.D., Executive Director, Police Association for College Education, in the August 2006 edition of Police Chief magazine.

Excellent, you brought some references to the table. Let us debate the merits.

Aamodt is an industrial hygenist and there is a reason his book is already out of print. Dantker's study (2005 UoOk) rips apart Aamodt's conclusions. The flaw with Aamodt's work is that he did not take into account vocational education, military education, college earned post employment, beginning socio economic factors and most of the agencies and studies surveyed were prior to 1980. Aamodt was looking to show that a more "liberal minded" officer is a better employee. Dantker (and the Verrill Study-20007) show that vocationally trained officers do use force more and have twice the street encounters with suspects. Dantker takes the higher sick time rate and breaks it down: It's higher because vocationally trained officers are more likely to be engaged in high risk units and to face a suspect.

Since you are citing Aamodt, he also shows women and minorities are worse performers all around.

The second study you cite, I have read the article and see most of the was data taken from a ten year study of a few major metro departments in the early 70's? Life on Mars?

Pre-Serpico, maybe it was helpful to "liberalize" the police....both studies tout that college education produces a "less conservative" officer as a plus. Neither study shows how agencies with college requirements differ in productivity, effectiveness or how it affects the crime rate. Does a liberal fireman put more water on a fire?

Most I have talked to said their college time was a waste and they were just doing it to get the degree, the paper. In one unit, I saw four people doing school work at their desks and three "uneducated" employees working their tails off. There are knowledge seekers that prefer to learn on their own. It's not a lazy thing, it's a seeking true knowledge thing.

You know what? It was fun debating you, even though there were some personal snipping on both sides(though not too shabby for this board). Obviously, I have some college or a two year degree in order to work here. I fear we diluted the original intent of this post. My point is that college should not be a requirement for sergeant, just a factor to consider and certainly college is not required for professional standards or corporal. Apparently my opinion is how it is in practice if not on paper. And finally, the boss of our boss has no college....maybe you are right after all....

The bottom line is that this is a challenge to our administration to right two wrongs. I am also calling out C3 to respond. He has responded in the past and now remains mum? Some will say this is not the forum but due to the sad political climate within the agency this is the only way. What are you going to do, if anything? You want to boost moral? take action. These are two great men being called to the carpet for this but RULES are RULES. They failed to meet the requirements that the position required and should be transferred. They should not be allowed to do it now only because they got caught or that it caught up to them. Other sergeant's who were promoted under similar circumstances fulfilled their college education requirement, the one in question did not. Same goes for the corporal.

A little birdie told me to check out this post!

This message is to the earlier poster "Here We Go Again"

Thanks for your concern. Your post is accurate. I didn't know about the test until someone called me and told me about it after the fact (No names mentioned so Mod 1 doesn't chime in!) Was I able to drive over and take the test? I was able to drive to physical therapy and lift weights so the answer is certainly I could've tested! Would I have taken the test? Hard to say...It would depend on how much time I had to study before the test. I like to prepare.

The Directives only say the exam process will be posted. It would've been impossible for me to read a promotional exam posting when I wasn't physically there at the PD to see it! Nowhere do the Directives say an officer on disability can't take a promotional exam. Maybe C4 can clarify that for a future Directives update.

In reality, I was more concerned with getting my health back in order so I could spend more quality time with my family. I also wanted my health back to a level commensurate with full duty. With budget cuts being implemented everywhere I don't think my being oblivious to the posted exam will matter in the long run.

Nice banter on the education thread.....I'll stay out of it though....I have a paper to write!

Scott 377

I am enjoying these posts and I too am taking classes, so I try to balance my family life, work, etc. I wonder how much of this schooling and degree seeking is being done at work?