New letter from the PBA -- It changed my vote!

Tekn directly from the PBA website:


This letter was delivered to the police station for every PBA member:

October 16, 2006

Dear Fellow Tampa Police Officer,

The following hand out contains information that will enable you to make an informed decision on the upcoming ratification vote. I’d like to point out a couple of issues that have surfaced during our meetings with our co-workers:

The topped out MPO at TPD, upon ratification, is actually $68,681.60. This is over $2000.00 better than our nearest competitor, Metro Dade. You can see the revised chart in this hand out for comparison purposes. We are in fact the highest paid department in this state.

Any Officer, having been promoted to Corporal or Detective, SHALL BE ABLE TO take the Sergeant’s exam, whether that Corporal or Detective has one year in grade or not. See the attached contract article, 35.4.1 for details.

the rest was edited for brevity, but can be found on the PBA's website.


I was all set to vote for this contract. I thought that the raises, while not exactly what I wanted, were pretty much fair. With the extras that went along with the pay, I felt that the contract was a fair one. What changed my mind?

Folks, there's one thing I can't stand, and it's being LIED to. I expect to be lied to by the people I encounter on the street, however I don't expect to be lied to by my elected union representitives--representatives of the organization that I pay $50 a month in dues to.

We are not the highest paid department in the state. The PBA knows this. Kevin Durkin must know this. As a matter of fact, I can't see how it is possible for a union president who deals with contractual matters and finances all the time not to know that there are agencies in the state that make more money than we do.

Just so nobody can say I'm talking out of my backside, I'll post statistics that are readily available from other departments' websites and the FDLE's yearly CJAP salary survey. All of the following numbers were found on the internet in about five minutes. I guess over three months of negotiations, the PBA never found these mysterious agencies that make more money than we do:


Palm Beach PD - Starting pay $48,229, top out at $72,613
Coral Springs PD - Starting pay $47,498 plus a $2000 hiring bonus
Volusia County DPP - Starting pay $46,298
Pembroke Pines PD - Starting pay $45,240
Pinecrest PD - Starting pay $45,000
Davie PD - Starting pay $44,567
Miami Beach PD - Starting pay $44,542
Sunrise PD - Starting pay $44,231
Boca Raton PD - Starting pay $43,992
Miramar PD - Starting pay $43,428
Coral Gables PD - Starting pay $42,842

These agencies were brought up to PBA representatives who came to roll calls. They could offer no valid explanation why they weren't included on the PBA's salary list. Yes, most are from South Florida, however there are plently of other agencies from South Florida on the PBA's list. Yes, some are smaller than TPD, but there are also agencies that are one quarter the size of TPD that were on their list (Lakeland with 230 officers and Sarasota with 260).

So what's my problem? The PBA was informed (whether they knew before or not--which I bet they did) that there are agencies that make more money than us. Today, Kevin Durkin authored a letter to each member boasting that we're the highest paid department in the state. People, this is a downright LIE.

Forget that the cost of living in South Florida is higher than it is here. Forget that the agencies even make more money than we do--that's not the point here. The point is that our union president is LYING to the membership in order to get us to ratify a contract. Nonwithstanding the provisions of the contract, I see this is absolutely inexcusable behavior.

My vote just changed from yes to no.

Just to remind those of you who are lost. Kevin may be a great guy. But the facts are he works for the Chief. He has accepted a promotion and therefore cannot negotiate without bias. FACT.

They (PBA) told us that some other agencies make more than us, but the ones our size, when you compared cost of living, and other incentives like take home cars, etc..we came out a head. I have to say if we are comparing pay to those agencies u listed, unless you live with your mom, you make alot more. a house, tax and insurance alone will eat up $30,000 of your pay down south.

Palm Beach PD - Starting pay $48,229, top out at $72,613
Coral Springs PD - Starting pay $47,498 plus a $2000 hiring bonus
Volusia County DPP - Starting pay $46,298
Pembroke Pines PD - Starting pay $45,240
Pinecrest PD - Starting pay $45,000
Davie PD - Starting pay $44,567
Miami Beach PD - Starting pay $44,542
Sunrise PD - Starting pay $44,231
Boca Raton PD - Starting pay $43,992
Miramar PD - Starting pay $43,428
Coral Gables PD - Starting pay $42,842

You're missing the point here. I understand what the cost of living is in South Florida. You don't need to tell me. I understand that when you consider the differences, we make more. However, on the same token, policepay.net ranks us BELOW Orlando and Jacksonville in their salary index, even though their salaries are lower than ours. That's because the cost of living in those areas is less and they have a better overall benefits package.

Anyway, back to the point of my post. I didn't post this thread to debate things that have been debated in every other contract thread on this board. I had one reason for posting this thread.

That reason was to express my dissatisfaction of our union president coming out and saying that we're the highest paid department in the state. If you're looking strictly at the numbers, that's not true (Palm Beach, etc.). If you're looking at the total package, that's still not true (Orlando and Jax).

The issue isn't that other agencies make more money. The issue is that the PBA knows that other agencies make more money, yet they are lying to the membership in hopes that we aren't concerned enough about this issue to do some research on our own.

The PBA was told about the errors in the salary list they put out. The PBA chose not only to ignore these errors, but Kevin decided to declare us the highest paid agency in the state even though he knows that's not true.

A lie is a lie is a lie. My issue is with being lied to by my union president, not that agencies in Palm Beach make more money than us.

"a lie is a lie is a lie"

I agree. i think its time for a new president.

Kevin said at the meetings, there are small departments, with rich communties that make more than us and that they are comparing us to real police departments and cities. Not places like pembroke pines, where the officers go water the plants of the citizens when they are on vacvation and the cheapest house is a million bucks. Orlando makes about $8,000 less than us, they just offer a lot of perk money which brings them up. They also get to spend about a $1000 plus bucks in gas a year driving to work. I bet policepay.net did not calculate gas and vehicle maintance/ cost in. I know the cost of living there is not any cheaper.

Taken directly from his letter:


We are in fact the highest paid department in this state.

There's no asterisk next to that comment. He doesn't qualify that comment. He declares TPD the HIGHEST PAID DEPARTMENT IN THIS STATE, not the highest paid "real department" in the state. For the life of me, what part of that do you not understand???

Don't give us semantics. They published a list that PURPOSELY did not include agencies that make more money than we do. When their bluff was called, they scrambled to defend their decision in hoping that the membership would still think they have some credibility. Now, instead of coming out and stating that we're the highest paid agency in the AREA, Durkin is STILL towing the "highest paid in the state" line, even though he knows it's not true.

A PBA rep in one roll call said we were flat out the highest paid agency in the state. It wasn't until someone brought up the numbers from some other departments that he conceeded we weren't. "Oh, but those are small agencies, they shouldn't count," was his argument. So what? Small agencies, small towns--real money.


We are in fact the highest paid department in this state.

That's misinformation and it's a downright lie. If you're too blind to see this, you either work for the PBA yourself or you've been drinking too much of their kool aid.

Oh, and I'm from South Florida originally. I can assure you that officers in Pembroke Pines do not "water plants." Ever been there? There are some areas of Pembroke Pines that rival the bad parts of Tampa. Look at their UCR statistics if you don't believe me.

bump

The person who started this post must be a rookie. Anyone whose been here any length of time knows that the PBA routinely lies to us. I agree with the points made though.

NO NO NO!

"a lie is a lie is a lie"

Let's see. You all seem to be upset with how the PBA lied to you. And rightfully so. Now I'm not looking to interject this thread with the post-2001 retirees pension concerns. But the PBA constantly 'lied' to us that it was 'in the bag' and we were definitely going to be included in the new mulitiplier. Even when having a letter signed off by the city and PBA stating so. And I hope no other retirees chime in and try to change this thread to a pension argument. But maybe now you can understand what we faced a little better and why we're fighting it so hard. This issue is as equally important to us as the contract negotistions are to you. And I guarantee you, the retirees need the money more. No sympathy please. A lie is a lie is a lie. We're just trying to correct the one that was given to us.

Stick to your guns, get as much as you can from the city, you deserve it, and don't let the city take advantage of you. And when it's all said and done, maybe you should get a new PBA president.

PS: Retirees health insurance is going up about $128 a month. I doubt if our COLA will be enough to cover that. So basically we'll be making less money next year than we did this year. I would urge you to work hard on your post retirement health coverage.

why is everybody saying the PBA lied??? OK, they supposedly gave us a sheet showing wrong salaries. maybe those sheets are off, but who knows. what we do know is we are one of the top paid dept's in the state. maybe your salary sheets are wrong or maybe even the FDLE sheets are wrong. and maybe the PBA didn't even know or have bad intent. give them a break, i could give a rats ass about other state salaries anyways.

To the "guest" who originally posted this nonsense.....Nice salary comparison! I believe you neglected to include the highest salaries at all but one of your agencies. Also, be forewarned that a substantial amount of the data on the FDLE website is incorrect and is based on numbers the cities choose to provide. The PBA contacted each of the agencies provided in our salary comparison for the pay figures...not FDLE. Also, as I said in your roll call, these numbers are for comparison purposes; there are many other factors you may want to consider (cost of living, take home vehicle policy, pension, longevity bonuses etc.........). The PBA has no reason to lie to anyone and I take personal offense to your comments. However, we still might be able to use your fantastic negotiating skills on the next contract, so why don't you get off your ass and participate. As for the babble posted by Chip, I would expect as much from someone who has a vested interest in promoting this site and the controversy it generates. For those few officers who believe that there is some kind of conspiracy going on here, I can only advise you to put your aluminum foil hats on and contact the space aliens who are living in the White House. They may be able to help you get to the bottom of all this.


John Swope
TPD Sergeant
Vice-President WCFPBA

OUTSTANDING RESPONSE!

That was just the response we expected from you Sgt Swoope. As usual you can answer a questions as presented to you. You choose to attack the person asking the question.

There have been numerous questions asked here that you have not responded to. Now I dont ask on the PBA board for a specific reason....That being that a member of THIS PBA made an inquiry about a problem in D3. The PBA staff (I dont know if it was you or others) promptly went to his Major to discuss the issue. The problem, you told the Major who was complaining. QUITE UNPROFESSIONAL in my book. Now the officer has suffered no direct retaliation.

But I digress,

You (the negotiation team) came out in the begining beating your chest about what you would demand. You said 7.5/6/5 or something like that plus a $750 bonus.

Now I ask you, all we have is 1.5% over what we received last time. This is after the greatest drop in crime rate in the history of the city. Is all that is worth is 1.5%?

You guys (the PBA board) keep beating your chests that you protected our rights. CRAP! We have those rights. Are you saying we had to give up our decent raise to "protect our rights". This is exactly why YOU nad YOUR TEAM should no have been negotiating for US! You allowed them to try to take things away and when they caved and said, "ok, you can keep it" you compromised on the 12.5% raise. You DID NOT use our survey as evident by your refusal to publish the results.

Now when you tell us to get off our ars and get involved let me respond to that. People have! However, you didn't listen to them PERIOD!

People came to the meetings and attempted to provide input. You would not listen. You have people on the TPD board who are certified by the Governor as "Know It ALLs" (on detective comes to mind). When we tried to give input we were told we did not understand. Some of us attended meetings. However, it was quite difficult because the date and times of the meetings were noT published.

DONT NOT TELL ME THEY WERE ON THE PBA SITE...THEY WERE NOT!!

I have lost all respect for you because of your post here and your lack of response in general.

However, I revert back to the most ignorant statement you ever made. It was back in Nov 05 after the racially driven promotions. You stated, "I think the promotions were good pics and have not heard officers were unhappy." What an ignorant statement for you to make.

Keep trying to sell us this contract becuase you "protected" our rights. You and the negotiation team caved pure and simple. Someone posted here on this site that we are actually making less than we did 15 months ago. I did the math and they are correct. You (the PBA) have done nothing to help us with the health care cost which exceed the raises.

YOU JUST DONT GET IT!

Dear Get a Grip.....

I guess calling someone a liar is not a personal attack...Huh???? Nice rant.

PBA Member

Hey all Ron Mexico from Hotlanta and just wanted to let you know that I also will be voting no... Thanks to everyone who has been playing the game but fair is fair when it comes down to it :lol: :lol: :lol:

Hey Get A Grip

I can only picture you slurring your words and spittle flying from your mouth in your anger.
:twisted:

Unfortunately, I belive emotions are affecting most of your conclusions.
It was clearly explained in our R/C by Swope the meaning of the Salary Comparison, the Insurance Issue (Which by the way Commandant Hillary Clinton nor President Bush have been able to fix).

I agree, intangibles coud be better on our contract. But like Swope said in our D-1 R/C, it is the best he has seen in his career. It is the best I have seen in my career, and I have been there for the 0-1-2 in the 80's.

If you disagree, Vote it Down. If you like it, Vote it In. No need to personally slam Swope. Vent your anger where it belongs...at TPD management fomenting this stat game which has caused much of the dissent. Our Chief for giving those bonuses - especially to McElroy.

Those are the peopel :mrgreen: worthy of spittle coming from your mouth.

I don't think there is any reason for the PBA to lie to us, and don't feel as though they have.

When a contract is agreed upon by them and the city they must in good faith present it positively to the masses, and that is what they have done. I was in one of the D1 roll calls attended by Sgt. Swope. He did in fact say that it was the best contract that he has ever seen at TPD. He also said that the vote is up to US. If WE disagree and believe we can do better that then the PBA are ready to go back to the table for US.

Swope should not be attacked or called a liar. He is a great guy who will be there if your back is ever up against the wall. I believe he may have let his emotions get in the way before he posted noteably in his references to Chip and with that is where I disagree with him.

Chip has his right to speak his mind like the rest of us. We all have our motives and wishes when it comes to issues with the contract. Just becuase Chip had the guts to post his name along with what he sees as shortcomings with the contract does not mean he deserves to be singled out.

In the end the contract is what it is. There is a vote upon us. Lets each cast our vote and wait for the outcome. If the majority thinks we can do better, hopefully the PBA can go back to the table and get more from the city or thru mediation.

But for me I am not willing to take this risk. To get that magic 15% that everyone seeks we will lose out in other areas. I believe the contract is FAIR and I will be voting YES!

To the "guest" who originally posted this nonsense.....Nice salary comparison! I believe you neglected to include the highest salaries at all but one of your agencies. Also, be forewarned that a substantial amount of the data on the FDLE website is incorrect and is based on numbers the cities choose to provide.

I'm the 'guest' who originally posted this 'nonsense.' I'm also somewhat surprised that out of all these posts about contract negotiations, this is the ONLY one that got any response from a real life PBA rep! Wow! I guess you guys really are on the defensive here.

I didn't come up with that list. It was posted in another thread on this board by another officer. I went to some of the departments' websites (Palm Beach included) and confirmed that the correct salaries were posted. So before you start blaming the FDLE, why don't you prove that the salaries are wrong! And the top salary was only published for one agency because most of them didn't publish their top salary on their websites. Either way, that's not the issue and I stated before that it's not the issue.


The PBA contacted each of the agencies provided in our salary comparison for the pay figures...not FDLE. Also, as I said in your roll call, these numbers are for comparison purposes; there are many other factors you may want to consider (cost of living, take home vehicle policy, pension, longevity bonuses etc.........).

Whooptie doo, the PBA contacted a dozen agencies to get salary comparisons. Is that what my $50 a month is spent on? You'd think that the PBA could have contacted some agencies that pay more than us as well, no? And you didn't say anything in my roll call, because you weren't in my roll call! But since you bring it up, there ARE other factors to consider. Policepay.net considers those factors in coming up with their pay index, which is why Orlando and Jacksonville are ranked higher than we are. I'm sure you're going to say that their statistics are 'wrong' too. It seems as though in your eyes, the PBA are the only people who can obtain valid statistics.


The PBA has no reason to lie to anyone and I take personal offense to your comments. However, we still might be able to use your fantastic negotiating skills on the next contract, so why don't you get off your arse and participate.

The PBA has a very good reason to lie to us. The PBA has a vested interest in the contract getting passed. You said yourself in this post that other agencies are paid more than us, so WHY would Kevin come out and declare us the highest paid in the state? Any way you slice it, that's a lie.

And I don't have fantastic negotiating skills, that's why I'm not on the contract committee. That's why I pay $50 a month, so you can get people to negotiate who DO have som skills. But the more I see the product of the committee and some of the people on it, I think that they probably have the same fantastic skills that I do. Oh well. Maybe we could just let the fire department's union negotiate our contract?

Thats about the response id expect from the PBA. Attack someone for criticizing them and then attack Chip for creating this website where debate and dialoge is encouraged. The facts stand as they are and nobody is buying your argument about the statistics being wrong. I even looked up some of those departments and the numbers are right. More lies I guess???? I also love it how the PBA always tells the people who criticize them that they should be on the contract committe or go to meetings. With the money we pay in dues the union should be bending over backwards to keep us informed and have only the best and brightest people negotiating the contract. Just because someone doesnt actively participate in negotiations doesnt make them any less of a member. My money is just as good as anyone elses.

I bet the PBA is gonna be asking for a dues increase after this contract is approved huh? I hope everyone knows that you can get a prepaid legal defense fund for about $25 a month so theres really no reason to even be a member.

Sergeant Swope,

Up until just seconds ago I have always felt you to be a very good LEADER, but to get into a mud slinging battle with fellow union members ? How very disappointing. I want to address two problems I have. One after reading your reply, and one because no one at the PBA seems to be addressing it, and I would like an answer. I hope that after I state these two things you can avoid calling me a conspiracy theorist, and you don't suggest I cover my head in foil.

My first issue is with you telling the poster who you dont agree with that he should be on the contract committee if he wants to see something done, As the holder of an elected office aren't you OUR voice ? we have voted you into that position because your view's WERE the same as the majority of the rest of us. When the senate or house of representitives (State or Federal Level take your pick) make decisions which affect their constituants you never hear them suggest that we the voters begin filing our own bills in the congress. Sergeant please remember that WE are your constituants. After reading your post today I took the time to go to the PBA website and read the constitution as it applies to voting on our representitves, as I see the new constitution makes it almost impossible for you all to ever lose your position, I still ask that you don't forget the initial trust that we placed in you.

My second question, which I would very much appreciate a response on is the following, Three years ago was really the first time that we were struck with a hugh rise in our health insurance, you spoke at the time and assured us that better plans were out there (I believe you even referenced your wife's place of employment and her plan if my memory serves me) you and our union president assured us that health care was going to be a primary focus for the 2006 contract. I now see that contract and see no mention of better health care what so ever. If my math is correct and taking into account three weeks of vacation a year, that should have left you all with 147 weeks, and roughly 5,880 work hours for each of you to put at least some thought into that better plan. With three of you full time at the PBA and retired sergeant Diamond as a fourth paid employee that would mean that in 23,520 hours that other union members and myself paid for, no one was able to compile a worth while health care idea? This concerns me

As we have added HCSO into the WCFPBA and some Polk County Agencies, I think.. Wouldn't we now have some where in the ball park of 3000 dues paying members ? Are we really unable to find a health care provider that would not give us a better rate when we have a client base that size ? and since we are the largest department in the city, would us not saying we are exploring the option of leaving the citys plan be a great barganing chip ?

Thank You in advance Sergeant for not ridiculing these statements and questions as you did the last poster, and I look forward to reading your reply.

Sincerly,

A dues paying, active member a.k.a. a constituant of the West Central Florida Police Benevolent Association.

Don't hold your breath bro. I bet you all the tea in China that the one post from Swope was the only one we'll see. He wont respond because he knows that he doesnt have a response. Thats why his first one was an insulting tirade that repeated the same old "come to meetings" line.

SGT Swope:

The PBA gets how much money from TPD every year? Let's say there are 900 members paying $26 a pay period so that comes out to over $600,000?

You guys are telling us that with all that money you get that you cant afford to have a professional come in and conduct a salary survey? Instead you contact 17 agencies and base our pay on that? With all this talk about this policepay.net website I decided to go take a look at it. It looks like hundreds of agencies have hired them to do stuff like salary surveys and ability to pay studies. It looks like the only one in Florida to use them is Tallahasses and miraculously they are also the highest paid agency in that area.

600K a year and we cant even get professional negotiators or a decent wage survey conducted. Just because Disney world is 90 miles away doesn't mean we need our own mickey mouse union operation.

I'm going to try to answer all the anonymous posters on this site and provide some explanation for my tirade yesterday.

1. The PBA has a legal obligation to support this tentative agreement whether we personally like it or not.
2. I resent being called a liar by someone who had no direct involvement in the planning, negotiating and ratification of this contract. I never suggested that anyone had to be on the contract committee. I did suggest that members need to be more involved.
3. The state PBA consumes $15.00 of your dues money every pay period. That goes to fund lobbying, death and legal benefits for our members state wide. The idea that we are just flush in cash is incorrect. We are on solid ground but I for one would not spend $2000.00 a month to get some graphs and inaccurate surveys from police pay.net. They are not the holy grail of negotiators and have no more information or experience than the PBA. Tallahassee PD tops out at 61k. WOW....Once again, please get involved when the time comes to negotiate these things.
4. The health insurance issue affects all of us and I agree that we need to find a solution to the problem. We have spoken to numerous heath care providers about establishing a PBA heath care plan. They have all told us that we cannot do it because we are not employers. I promise you we will keep trying. We made several proposals to the City and all were turned down. What we wound up with was the ability to participate in the negotiations with providers. Hopefully, this will lead to some competition among providers and better benefits. We'll see.
5. Now that I have calmed down a little bit, I would like to clarify my comments about the aluminum foil and aliens. I am referring to a small group of officers who seem to spot conspiracies in everything. The PBA is not in bed with the City, the Officers of the PBA have no vested interest in shoving something down your throat and if you don't like this contract, vote accordingly. Its not hard to run for office here. Get involved. I would be more than happy to pass on this thankless job.
6. Comparisons to other agencies are useless. We debated over providing these salary comparisons but decided to do so in the interest of being informative. Maybe we were wrong but there was no evil intent. We are the highest paid major metropolitan department in the state. As far as I can tell, we beat out every Sheriff's Department also. As I said in roll call, there are a handful of tiny departments on the east coast in very affluent communities that have higher base pay. Check out the other benefits we have and see how they compare. Is there room for improvement? Sure. Are we doing better than everyone else? Yes
7. Just because some other department in the country got 30%, 40% or 140% , resist the temptation to apply this to TPD. Fist of all, those raises are generally based on lower numbers. 30 % of $25,000.00 is not the same as 30% of $65,000.00 Second, the cost of living is much higher in other areas of the country. It is much more expesive to live in San Francisco than it is in Tampa, even considering recent increases in housing costs here.

Thanks,
John Swope
WCFPBA

That is the Sgt. Swope I know. Calm, Cool, and relaxed just stating the facts. I agree with what he says. The contract is a fair one. BUT If the masses diagree the PBA will go back to work to try to get us more.

There is no need to draw lines with members on each side. Let the vote happen. The outcome is the outcome win or lose. We need to stay unified as a group and not divide ourselves over the vote. There is power in numbers.

John thanks for the response, and more importantly thanks for having our back when its up against the wall.

Sergeant,

Thank you for todays post, I found it to be very informative. I certainly don't agree with all that you had to say but thats what makes this forum great.

As for the health care I will say that it continues to bother me that three years was able to produce absolutely nothing. A suggestion which has been a reaccuring one with this PBA administration would be that perhaps if we heard from you guys the other two years and nine months out of the each contract we would not be so shocked and disapointed to learn what has and has not been done.

Each time this is brought up someone from the PBA goes out of their way to appologize and promise better, but when will we see this ? Please communicate more often let us know how the insurance war is progressing and other issues.

Thanks again

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I agree that we could do a better job of one-on-one communicating. Sometimes I think that we get wrapped up in the work (which by the way is alot more than I ever did before) and forget the details. I can guarantee you that it is not done on purpose. As far as the health insurance issue goes, how about this...our next meeting will be the last Wednesday of the month at 1530. Please attend and we will discuss some current and future proposals.

Thanks
John Swope

The state PBA consumes $15.00 of your dues money every pay period. That goes to fund lobbying, death and legal benefits for our members state wide. The idea that we are just flush in cash is incorrect. We are on solid ground but I for one would not spend $2000.00 a month to get some graphs and inaccurate surveys from police pay.net. They are not the holy grail of negotiators and have no more information or experience than the PBA. Tallahassee PD tops out at 61k. WOW....Once again, please get involved when the time comes to negotiate these things.


Ok,

Sgt Swope,

Will you answer a question?

Do you, Kevin, Gary or any other member of the PBA Borad, exuctive Board, left board, rigth board or anyone involved get ANY king of extra bonus, salay, stipend or ANY money out of our coffers?

It has been reported by members of the TPD PBA board that you, Gary and Kevin get a stipend every month. When asked how much and for what, the TPD Board members say they dont know.

Simple question - Is this true or not? If it is, how much money are you guys getting and for what?

Now that we know you read this board, please answer this question.

PBA Member