Apology Owed by PBA President

I was recently attending the detective roll call to attend the required viewing of the Mayor's strategic plan. There were about 60 detectives and 20 civilians present. While I was there, the PBA President addressed the roll call about PBA issues. No problem with that.

He then singled one person out and basically chastised this person. This was completely unprofessional and should not have been handled this way. Whatever happened to confronting someone one on one?

All that he did was discredit himself and the PBA. You owe that person, the entire department and the organization an apology. Step up, or step down, respect has been lost.

Before anyone demands an apology, who did he single out? Some people deserve it...especially those in the administration who single out officers PUBLICLY!

Before agreeing with you that someone should step up and apologize or step down, it would help to know more about the situation.

If you are a "guest" and not an officer, perhaps you are unaware of how many times the administration has publicly humiliated many of their officers this year, prior to finishing Internal affairs investigations. The officers are not allowed to publicly comment or respond to this humiliation, no matter how egregious the accusations, as long as the investigation is ongoing. So not only is it inappropriate to publicly attack them when they cannot repsond - its also against the LAW for the administration to release ANY information before the investigation is complete!

So perhaps a little helping of what they've been dishing out is appropriate. However - since I don't know who was singled out and what it was for, it makes agreement very difficult.

The person he did this to is not only a detective, but an active PBA member. The person was sitting in the room and then singled out by name. It was not the time or the place for this.

There are plenty of ways that this situation could have been handled. Check with any of the people in attendance, including the MCB Major, MCB Captain and all the MCB Sergeants, and numerous detectives.

You might want to even check with the civilians that were there. What took place was wrong to have been addressed in this manner. We are always told not to go down to someone else's level, and remain professional.

It is a good thing that PBA members can no longer vote for the PBA President, because he would have just lost about 60 votes. Of course, he could always do the right thing and admit his mistake. Not for going after this person, but for doing it in the manner in which he did.

The entire division was shocked and embarrassed by his actions. He came to roll on the guise that he wanted to inform us about contract negotiations when in fact his agenda was to get up a detective's ass. The PBA president needs to apologize to the detective and the entire division.
To everyone who was there "Get out of my ASS"" LOL

The entire division was shocked and embarrassed by his actions. He came to roll on the guise that he wanted to inform us about contract negotiations when in fact his agenda was to get up a detective's a.ss.. The PBA president needs to apologize to the detective and the entire division.
To everyone who was there "Get out of my a.ss."" LOL
Apparently you can't write the "a" word...

Who is the President accountable too? It seems the membership has allowed him to have a secure position until he decides to vacate. You have to be on the Board to even be considered to run for an Executive position. Existing Board Members are the only ones allowed to run for an Executive position, President, Senior V.P Etc. Etc. a couple of the existing Executive Board members appear to have been appointed to their positions, by whom? Does any P.B.A member remember voting for the Executive Board positions? It has been several years since we had such an election and it appears it will be several more before we do. It appears we only vote for the representatives. I think the President is pretty smart in how the election process has been allowed to develope.The membership and B.O.D appear not to care.
As for his pointing out the detective I agree it should have been one on one and showup was not the forum. :shock: :shock:

Not only was he unprofessional but as anyone who was there obviously saw it was more personal than having to do with business especially since he appeared to be showing off forsome blonde girl he walked in with. BTW the PBA has made their choices for endorsements for judges have any of you been asked an opinion I havn't. I know two choices that were made Jack Ruddy and Kim Fernandez.

Folks, its time to figure out how this thing works.

At this point the Board of Directors are so established in their positions that they can ignore the wants and needs of the rank and file. They are in a position to scratch each other's backs in terms of electing who they want to be President, etc. and there's nothing the troops can do about it EXCEPT TO CLEAN HOUSE.

But its not enough to just grumble that you aren't being consulted. SOMEONE has to step up and run for office, replacing the people who are being unaccountable. If you won't step up you may as well shut up!

If the majority are in fact satisfied with the way the Board is doing things - let them alone.

About political endorsements - it is not unusual for the Board of Directors of an organization to have the freedom to make endorsements in the name of the organization. It would be very unwieldy to canvass the entire membership regarding all of the endorsements that are to be made in all of the races that are taking place.

Well, I guess I've come down on both sides on this issue. YOU make up YOUR mind what you want to have happen.

Two Minds, The problem with voting them out is that it can't be done. The by-laws that were voted in a few years back only allow the next president to come from the list of existing Board of Directors or one of the Executive Board members. The apathy of the Board of Directors and us the active members has allowed this to happen. So it looks like until the current president decides that he does not want to be president anymore he will lead the PBA as it is the only recognized union in Tampa for LEO'S.

If you feel that stong about the lack of leadership of the PBA, then organize a vote of NO CONFIDENCE, then petition the State PBA to step in. If nothing else, you generate some to open their eyes and no one likes to be embarrassed. But alas, again no one will have the nads to do it. Thats why the Dept knows they can screw with you.

We have both the PBA and FOP in Pinellas. I have to say the FOP is better in my view. Last time I check the Pinellas lodge for PBA didn't have an attorney, that's why I went FOP. The FOP has a top rate attorney, who is also a Police Officer. Here is what you do. Have everyone of the 60 Detectives there forgets to pay there dues. Doing this will get there attention. Brothers in Tampa is time to get another Union in there competition is a great thing. Make them fight to represent you.

What is going on with the contract? What TOP PRIORITIES are being discussed? We as members want a solidified HEATH CARE BENEFIT FOR RETIREMENT...that should be a #1 issue. There are people here that would love to retire and would like some assistance. I thought the PBA would fight for BENEFITS. I'm really getting turned off about the same old same old song. ITS A SAD DAY. :cry:

What is going on with the contract? What TOP PRIORITIES are being discussed? We as members want a solidified HEATH CARE BENEFIT FOR RETIREMENT...that should be a #1 issue. There are people here that would love to retire and would like some assistance. I thought the PBA would fight for BENEFITS. I'm really getting turned off about the same old same old song. ITS A SAD DAY. :cry:


The president of the HCSO Alumni Association contacted the PBA and suggested that, based upon the experience of our retirees, a top priority in negotiations should be that the county should continue to pay the same amount for the retirees health insurance premium as they pay for active employees health insurance premium. Currently, when we retire we pay the entire cost of health insurance, over $500 a month.

The response was that the PBA only negotiates for the benefits of its members - active duty employees. Now, notice that the president wasn't asking for negotation for the benefit of current retirees! He was pointing out that the PBA should be obtaining this very important future benefit for active employees.

The PBA official he was talking to couldn't seem to grasp the concept.

For crying out loud, REAL UNIONS negotiate all kinds of retirement benefits for their employees. The management of the PBA appears to be very shortsighted.

Hope you have better luck than we did.

"For crying out loud, REAL UNIONS negotiate all kinds of retirement benefits for their employees. The management of the PBA appears to be very shortsighted."

Guess you missed the mulitplier battle. The PBA and the City negotiated it for 'future' retirees. Then both parties screwed us over. So you're correct when you say the PBA appears to be shortsighted. I would say 'blind' is a more appropriate word. Actually, I would use a lot of other words, but they'd probably get deleted. :roll:

I wish I was paying $500 for health insurance. We pay over $800 for it. Oh wait, I'm a bitter, greedy, complaining retiree.

"For crying out loud, REAL UNIONS negotiate all kinds of retirement benefits for their employees. The management of the PBA appears to be very shortsighted."

Guess you missed the mulitplier battle. The PBA and the City negotiated it for 'future' retirees. Then both parties screwed us over. So you're correct when you say the PBA appears to be shortsighted. I would say 'blind' is a more appropriate word. Actually, I would use a lot of other words, but they'd probably get deleted. :roll:


No, I didn't miss the multiplier battle. Actually, the PBA was conforming to what I said in my original post - they do NOT negotiate benefits for retirees, only for active members.

Also, technically there are two areas of concern to employees - pay and benefits. The multiplier battle was about pay. Benefits are things other than pay, such as insurance, leave policies, etc.

A really effective union would not abandon members who have retired, but would negotiate retirement benefits for current employees while lobbying for these same benefits to be provided to retirees.

It is a sad state of affairs when active duty and retired people are at each other's throats over pay and benefits. Where is the respect for those who have gone before and laid the framework for what followed?

:(

I guess you're confusing me a little. The originally negotiated multiplier was a benefit forthe actives as well as retirees. At least that's how some of us look at it. It didn't matter when you retired as long as you were employed as of July 1, 2001. The benefit wasn't supposed to take effect until Oct 2004. I guess the difference is that it was negotiatied for 'active' employees. But for the 200 or so of us that got screwed out of the benefit, it would have taken effect post retirement. Even those that are still active but never contributed a dime to the new multiplier, ie: the DROP folks, got the new multiplier. Although many lines of thinking consider them to be 'retired'. So where's the rationale to this thinking. Now, I guess they want to get paid healthcare for 'future' retirees. So I'm sure there'll be plenty of folks who retire the day after that one is enacted. But you're extremely correct when you say it's a sad state of affairs when active duty and retired people are at each other's throats. Obviously there is no repsect for those who have gone before and laid the framework for what followed. Our pension is wonderful until you realize that almost 30% goes towards health insurance. Maybe one day the active folks will wake up. Let's hope for some better changes for ALL.

Shortsighted get over it. We all know how the retirees saw it. You had your day and court and lost TWICE. It's a moot point move on.

Quit crying and go get a job if you are broke. Maybe HCSO is hiring it sounds as though they are trying to do right by their retirees.

Shortsighted get over it. We all know how the retirees saw it. You had your day and court and lost TWICE. It's a moot point move on.

Quit crying and go get a job if you are broke. Maybe HCSO is hiring it sounds as though they are trying to do right by their retirees.

Spoken like a true, misguided active person. It ain't over yet!!!

You had to be on the job 01 OCT 03 to get the multiplier, not 01 OCT 01. You must be confused. BTW, didn't you sign a DROP contract foregoing all future increases? Good thing they still let you reserves run extra duty!

[Blah]

Don't even waste your breath. They forget all about that contract they signed except for when they falsely accuse the pension board of having broken it. Perhaps next they should sue the city for back pay. You know, because officers have gotten SEVERAL pay increases since some of these guys retired. Why should today's officers get paid more than they did? That's not fair, is it. The city should pay up. Maybe next, we should pay reparations to the descendants of officers who retired before TPD had a pension. They deserve it too. Actives should forego any future raises, and the money that would have paid those raises should be divvied up amongst the retirees to soothe the emotional distress they have sustained as a result of the pension board and active officers denying the retirees a benefit they neither bargained for nor are entitled to.

P.S. I've noticed the retiree website no longer allows anonymous posting. Seems the retirees' ass'n feels posting without leaving your name is devisive and spineless. Funny how they feel that way in their house, yet come over here and post anonymously.

You had to be on the job 01 OCT 03 to get the multiplier, not 01 OCT 01. You must be confused. BTW, didn't you sign a DROP contract foregoing all future increases? Good thing they still let you reserves run extra duty!

Or else you're really new here. We were screwed out of the originally negotiated multipler. One that you probably helped screws us out of. Negotiated betwen the PBA and the City. Thanks for your support. No reserve duty for this hero. And no, I didn't sign any DROP contract. Many of us didn't drop. But you know everything. The fat lady hasn't sung yet. Please get your facts straight. Unless you enjoy the taste of your foot :wink:

Well it amazes me that people who swore an oath to uphold the law while on active duty, resort to attempting grand theft when retired.

You don't deserve ANYTHING more than you got. pure greed. and of the worse kind. greed for greeds sake.


Devoting your senior years to trying to steal from the next generation of officers, is disgraceful.


go to the early bird dinners and then go home and yell at those dam kids to get off your lawn. But don't come back and try to steal something you don't deserve.

I would hate to be RETIRED and constantly think "mulitplier", "law suit", "more court", "appeal", etc......jesus, your retirement must really suck. When I retire I am gonna take what i got coming to me and never talk about this crap again, you guys must really hate life. Go sign up for off duty at the Bucs game if you cant leave the job behind.

"When I retire I am gonna take what i got coming to me and never talk about this crap again,"

Famous last words. We all uttered them.
How about the 13th check? Will you complain when you don't get it, although the fund earned enough money to pay it? Then will you not complain when it's withheld for ridiculous reasons? Oh wait, I have to make the early bird at Picadilly, bye :roll:

[Blah]

See, that's the really sad part. You guys had my complete support when your argument was about the 13th check. I agree that you should get it when the situation meets the criteria. However, you guys were not content to fight over something you deserved. You got greedy, and decided you wanted something you did not deserve (the increased multiplier.) Your actions have sunk now to the level of a two year old baby's temper tantrum. "If we can't get the multiplier (that we don't deserve), then we'll bleed the pension fund coffers with frivolous legal action, even after the courts have TWICE told us that we are wrong. That will teach the actives."

You've lost sight of the battle you SHOULD be fighting and been led astray by the greedy leaders of your now-parasitic association. You have lost all credibility, along with my (and MANY others) support and respect. You've made your bed, I hope you lay down before you waste more of MY (and your) pension money trying.

In sense as an active police officer, I feel sorry for the retirees in some respect. If a BENEFIT of HEALTH CARE COVERAGE was negotiated for retired police officers in the past, the stress of high cost of health care from their retirement checks , wouldn't be that bad and they can go off and retire somewhat comfortably. Everyone will feel the effect of this lump money being taking out of your already taxed pension. This will basically leave you with not much to live on...and eventually when you look back.....you'll laugh and say, " So many years and so many risks and so many friends lost, to have a pension amount to nothing ". Bottom line....we need to get this BENEFIT ....a fund needs to be devised with the city and the active officers in contributing to a health care relief plan. Take a lesson from the RETIREES and LEARN.

How did we go from the real issue about the President dissing a PBA member at a Roll Call to a retiree type and gripe session. The retirees have their own website. Please gripe to each other on that site. If your so disgruntled sign over your pension check and when you receive the 13th check as well to those less fortunate.
Has anyone seen the President to ask him about his melt down :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: ?

He is accountable only to himself and the PBA Board members. He will not address this issue because he feels that he is untouchable. This incident should have never of happened in the setting that it did. Oh, and I can not wait to get my new boots and sunglasses in this contract. I don't need any more money. We all make to much. Just give us boots.

I say :shock: Taking all the risks on the street.......man...I'll risk life and limb. Hmmmmm......what benefit will the PBA and the city give me for all these sacrifices. Lets see here.......thats right...........BOOTS.......thats the ticket. This benefit of BOOTS will go a long way when I retire. Maybe, when I leave, these BOOTS can go with me...since I won't be able to afford anything, after paying all these high cost deductions in my pension for HEALTH INSURANCE. :shock:

The fact is untill Kevin Durkin takes a stand for us we are screwed . The retired guys deserve the same resoect as us actively on duty. PBA stop the garbage and become a true union for us. Jim Preston and the guys at the FOP would never let this go on. It is sad to see the pba forgeting the guys who trained us being treated this way.

Active Duty

Being treated what way? They are being treated exactly as they are making us treat them. They are jealous that they didn't negotiate a higher multiplier while they were active and they're bitter that they aren't eligible for the multiplier that we have negotiates for ourselves and future officers. Now they are making the board waste OUR money to stand against the temper tantrum they are throwing in court. I have great respect for the job these people did, I have no respect for how they're conducting themselves now. When they start acting like men who've retired from the two greatest professions instead of snotty little brats, then we'll treat them like men.

Being treated what way? They are being treated exactly as they are making us treat them. They are jealous that they didn't negotiate a higher multiplier while they were active and they're bitter that they aren't eligible for the multiplier that we have negotiates for ourselves and future officers. Now they are making the board waste OUR money to stand against the temper tantrum they are throwing in court. I have great respect for the job these people did, I have no respect for how they're conducting themselves now. When they start acting like men who've retired from the two greatest professions instead of snotty little brats, then we'll treat them like men.

You'll never get it.

Just as a matter of interest, look at the District of Columbia Police Retirement Plan.

Here is a quote: "(a) Notwithstanding § 5-743, each individual heretofore or hereafter retired from active service and entitled to receive a pension relief allowance or retirement compensation under the provisions of subchapter I of this chapter shall be entitled to receive, without making application therefor, with respect to each increase in salary granted by this act, or hereafter granted by law to which such individual would be entitled if he were in active service, an increase in his pension relief allowance or retirement compensation. Except as otherwise provided in this section, such increase shall be in an amount which bears the same ratio to such increase in salary as the amount of each such individual's pension relief allowance or retirement compensation in effect on the day next preceding such salary increase bore to the salary to which he would have been entitled had he been in active service on the day next preceding such salary increase."

Cutting through the doubletalk, here is what it means.

The retiree gets the same percent raise in retirement compensation as an active duty officer of the same rank that the retiree held when he retired.

Say you retired as a corporal. Active duty corporals get a 5% raise in pay, your retirement compensation goes up by 5%.

THAT'S looking out for the retiree. :D

quote: THAT'S looking out for the retiree.


Thats also stealing from the guys working. you need to get off this and find something to do with your life. Wasting our time and money isnt one of them.

"Thats also stealing from the guys working. "



What a selfish *******.

What's that saying about the greesy teapot calling the kettle a selfish *******....

"Thats also stealing from the guys working. "



What a selfish *******.


Worse than that - it is stupidly shortsighted. Why can't some of the active duty guys understand that someday they will be retired and this "progressive increase" would benefit THEM for the rest of their life?

It's a LIFETIME benefit!


8)

Because they're too stupid to see past their next paycheck :roll:

Or because they might hold a grudge against a group of crusty old basards who want to steal their money

Or because they might hold a grudge against a group of crusty old basards who want to steal their money


Ahhh, but.........

You see, in holding a grudge and opposing this proposal you do (financial) injury to your future self.

Or, perhaps..............

You don't see.

Alas.............................................. ..

:(

Hey thanks for the idea, we may just have look into adding that, of course excluding those who are already retired. That along with the multiplier would set nicely. Thanks for the idea, now go to bingo and get off our board.

Can some one please explain something?

Why is it everytime we run into a PBA Staff Memeber and ask about the contract, they reply "We are not a liberty to discuss that, it is all behind close doors for now!" "Let Kevin, do his job for all of you!"

What exactly is he doing for us?

Yeah we'll ask for the retirement benefits. BUT they won't include YOU!!!

You made a bad decision, now go with it. Don't ask us to fix YOUR MISTAKE and at our expense!!!


go away we'll NEVER, EVER allow you to steal from us.

YOU disgust me to no end.

The fact is this: you serve your country or the public and when your term iks done. The unions, the country and the people we ser ve sweep usunder the rug. The term "yor served" means exactly that. The fact that the unions forget about the men and women who have served is a clear line of disrespect. You ungrateful self centered idiots who don't think the old guys get the respect should have you A$$es kicked. The old guys are the reason any of us are here. Don't forget them. respect them and kevin do the right thing for now on. I say we start w website and list al the things the pba leadership has done wrong. Anyone game. I have a friend who will build the site. How many are game.

Listen, Spelling bee Champ...nobody is saying the retirees don't deserve respect for the job they did and the sacrifices they made. I have nothing but respect for the job they did. What I don't respect is the nerve they have to try to take money out of my pocket, then call me names when I object to it.

And here's a better idea than your "let's whine about the PBA" Website....why don't you start a website where you and the 3 other people who feel the retirees are entitled to more than they bargained for prior to their retirement can donate your own money to them. Then maybe they'll quit trying to get their hands on mine.

Then maybe they'll quit trying to get their hands on mine.


I find it interesting that you regard the money in the retirement fund as "yours." When you started your first day of work the fund already existed and had been funded and managed by those who came before you.

Now, if you were contributing to a fund that had a zero balance on the day you walked in and you and your fellow employees who came to work on that day had funded it, managed it and seen it grow - THEN it would be "your money."

You would be wise to advocate a retirement plan which would see your retirement income grow along with the pay increases of active personnel. You would come out ahead, and you would NOT be stealing money from those who come after you, a charge you keep making about current retirees.

It's a shame that you are incapable of understanding this.

:(

You misunderstood me. I was not referring to the money currently in the retirement fund. I was making a dual reference to the extra money I would have had to contribute (likely 25%) if the 9/11 losses hadn't been spread over both funds. Even though the courts have already stated the losses were handled properly, they persist in wasting EVERYONE'S pension money in court. I was also referring to the new multiplier they continue to say I don't deserve if they are not included.

As I've said a hundred times, I support the retirees getting a 13th check when the criteria is met. Find me 1 retiree who has not received his monthly pension check, and I'll support a fight to get it for him/her. But if we are expected to include them in every future multiplier increase, we won't be able to afford it and the city will never agree to it. I hate to sound callous, but they didn't bargain for it before they retired, and they're getting the pension they bargained for. I wish I could wave a magic wand and make them all rich, but I can't. And I resent being berated by the few loudmouths in the retiree's association for their not receiving what they're not entitled to.

It is real simple, you just can't live as high on the hog when you are retired as you did when you were working.


Some of these guys were so busy keeping up with the Jones family that all they have is the pension fund and that is cause it was taken out of their checks.

Thieves plain and simple

At least we're not ignorant to the issues and problems at hand.

You misunderstood me. I was not referring to the money currently in the retirement fund. I was making a dual reference to the extra money I would have had to contribute (likely 25%) if the 9/11 losses hadn't been spread over both funds. Even though the courts have already stated the losses were handled properly, they persist in wasting EVERYONE'S pension money in court. I was also referring to the new multiplier they continue to say I don't deserve if they are not included.

As I've said a hundred times, I support the retirees getting a 13th check when the criteria is met. Find me 1 retiree who has not received his monthly pension check, and I'll support a fight to get it for him/her. But if we are expected to include them in every future multiplier increase, we won't be able to afford it and the city will never agree to it. I hate to sound callous, but they didn't bargain for it before they retired, and they're getting the pension they bargained for. I wish I could wave a magic wand and make them all rich, but I can't. And I resent being berated by the few loudmouths in the retiree's association for their not receiving what they're not entitled to.


I see your point and I agree that under the present system when someone went into DROP they "froze" their retirement pay. If subsequent developments meant that future retirees should get more there is no logical rationale to say that the DROP people should get that too, since they are retired although still working.

BUT, what I am proposing is a change in the way the plan works by negotiating for the city to make a substantially larger contribution to the retirement fund so that the retiree's annunity increases (percentage wise) would match the active officers' pay increases (percentage wise.) This would be a union negotiation issue.

Of course you might need better negotiators (or a different union) to accomplish this.

:roll:

How many of the hcso retirees backed the pba when it came in,as I recall most bashed the union and scoffed at it.Did you all ask to join the union or do you all have the same mentality you had when you worked for the s.o, .....something for nothing.Remember none of the retirees were ever union members,nor were they supporters.

How many of the hcso retirees backed the pba when it came in,as I recall most bashed the union and scoffed at it.Did you all ask to join the union or do you all have the same mentality you had when you worked for the s.o, .....something for nothing.Remember none of the retirees were ever union members,nor were they supporters.


You speak from ignorance.

Although I was at the point of leaving, and in fact had already been in DROP for quite some time when the question of whether or not to support the union proposal arose, I came on leoaffairs.com and using my true name posted my support for bringing in the union.

Others, also using their true names, opposed it vigorously. There is nothing wrong with that. That is democracy in action.

If you will re-read my original post you will see that when the Alumni Association president approached the PBA about retirement benefits, it was to suggest that those benefits be arranged for active people who would retire in the future, not for current retirees. The suggestion was made, as I said, based upon the experience of current retirees. Only lobbying for such benefits for current retirees was suggested, not negotiation.

The actual vote that brought in the union came after I had quit working. If there had been a program in which retirees could have joined the PBA, I would have joined as an expression of solidarity. In my opinion retirees should be able to join unions and the unions should negotiate benefits for retirees.

But, absent that, there is no question that an EFFECTIVE union would be negotiating pay and benefit retirement issues for their active members. Certainly the automakers and the teamsters unions have been doing so for decades.

At least we're not ignorant to the issues and problems at hand.

Aaah but you ARE. The issue at hand is you trying to get something for NOTHING!!!

The issue at hand is you trying to steal from someone else


The issue at hand is that you want someone to pay for YOU!!!


As far as correcting any problems the ACTIVE membership will see fit to act if need be, for THEM not you. you are history, you cannot come back and commit an act of theft or attempt to gain favor by several nuisance lawsuits. In effect holding hostage the monies by threatening more litigation.

You were a valued member at one time try to remember you are supposed to uphold that image of dignity, not digress into a bunch of bandits, looking to rob people who are employed.

I agree with MOST of what you say. However, the reason (as I see it) that benefits for retirees have to be lobbied for as opposes to negotiated for is sinple. To negotiate, both sides need to have something to offer, to compromise. The retirees have nothing to offer the city, therefore the city has no incentive to give the retiree any further benefit. The only remaining avenue is to lobby for benefits.

I agree with MOST of what you say. However, the reason (as I see it) that benefits for retirees have to be lobbied for as opposes to negotiated for is sinple. To negotiate, both sides need to have something to offer, to compromise. The retirees have nothing to offer the city, therefore the city has no incentive to give the retiree any further benefit. The only remaining avenue is to lobby for benefits.


OK, we are very close to full agreement here.

I see it like this: If the union were to successfully negotiate ON BEHALF OF ACTIVE employees for better, and less costly, health insurance for ACTIVE employees when they retire, THEN that would provide leverage for PEOPLE ALREADY RETIRED to put political pressure on (the city in your case; the county in my case) to provide the same benefits for previously retired employees. There is no guarantee of success, but the likelihood of success improves if the benefit exists for future retirees.

So you see, the union is negotiating solely for active employees but it has the potential to provide a benefit for current retirees. It is also an incredibly great future benefit for the actives.

It is a win/win for actives and retirees.


:D

Okay, I agree 100% with that. The ONLY remaining problem is (at least with the Tampa retired police and firefighters ass'n) is that they have already proven that they are going to throw a tantrum when actives receive a benefit that retirees don't receive. And obviously, I'm not making a blanket negative statement about retirees. On the contrary, I believe the current state of bitter devisiveness of the association is a result of a handful of malcontents who are selling their peers a bill of goods. Hopefully logic will prevail and they will quit wasting everybody's money...but I'm not holding my breath. I hope things are better for you fellas in the county.

Maybe some of you know-it-all active folks should come to a retirees meeting and vent your concerns. I readily admit that when I was active, I didn't know anything about the PRAA fund and the Coniglio decision. You'd be enlightended, that's for sure. I believe the retirees point is, that if you use the PRAA to better things for yourselves, which was done, then the retirees should benefit as well. So in effect, it is the actives who are 'stealing' our money, as many of the actives state when they say we are trying to 'steal' their money. Obviously, things aren't that bad since your contributions have dropped down to a minimal amount again. I said it before, but you all need to realize that any enhancement to retirees benefits will only benefit you later on. But you just don't get it yet. Thankfully Loper is gone. And once the pension board wakes up, maybe this whole stupid mess will be resolved.

ALL I WANT FOR CHRISTMAS IS MY HEALTH CARE BENEFIT...MY HEALTH CARE BENEFIT...MY HEALTH CARE BENEFIT. C'MON EVERYONE LETS SING. :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

You've been suckered by the TFPRA. The PRAA was NOT Used to benefit actives. It had NOTHING to so with our new multiplier. Losses from 9/11 were spread over the entire fund and the court has ruled the fund was handled properly. Quit being snookered by your president and the 5 or so other liars over there.

How many monthly pension checks have you NOT received? NONE! You are NOT an injured party! Quit acting like 60 year old toddlers.

Like I said, come to a retirees meeting and get the real information. But your one of those know-it-alls, so you probably won't. The battle continues.

And like I said before....What does all the dribble about who got the multiplier and who did not have to do with the President's melt down at show-up. If you retirees want to discuss the issue that, " I am a retiree feel sorry for me because I decided to retire several years before sixty five and apparently have an adversion to working to improve my life and now the actives decided to negotiate new benefits with the money they contribute and I listened to the past leaders who apparently did not feel it was important so now lets blame the Union, the City and the actives for not thinking about us retirees who contributed $20,000-60,000 over 20-25 years and have received $100,000's in pension payments but that is not enough so etc. etc. etc. Go to your website and gripe. This is no disrespect to those retirees that do have a life and are thankful like I am for what I have received.

If you check on the first page of this thread, you'll see one of you active guys began this by asking what's happening with the contract. Next, a retired HCSO deputy chimed in about what their dept is considering for health care for retirees. I don't think either of these issues apply to Durkin's melt down. So before you continue blaming retirees about how this got started, look to your own first. If you also have a problem with retirees or anyone else accessing these boards, then make registration mandatory. And believe it or not, the retirees, even the ones who don't have a life as you put it, wish this whole matter would be resolved and go away. It's just going to take a little more doing for the right thing to be done.

If the retirees want to take some some money out of there retirement check...wait about three years or so for the FUND to grow and contribute, like everyone else, I'm all for it. We all worked or actively work the same job, and we all should have an equal benefit. Now back to REALITY, this will only happen for the ACTIVES....because it will be created by the ACTIVES in there own fund. It wouldn't work to add the retirees...because they would bankrupt the fund before it had a chance to grow. They would immediately start benefiting and collecting. Once a certain date is established by law, for who can be legally entitled, then the current retirees can collect. My guess is, if the retirees want to contribute a higher percentage into the fund to prevent such bankruptcy, which I highly doubt, then come on board. But, I guess there would be a LAWSUIT on that issue too.

I have to make a comment.
It wasn't so much the fact that we got screwed as it was the mayor looking us right in the eye and lying to us.
She said..."You are partners for life with the city and you will be included in the new plan."
I guess she lied.
And I guess we will have to elect someone who won't lie.
Gooooodbyeeeee.

You must have way too much time on your hands and bitterness. Were you really a cop? if so you should be use to the fact that life is not fair, maybe you sat behind a desk tooooooooo long. Take up a hobby or you will self destruct because you are not getting anything more than you retired with. It's just the facts of life. Take care of yourself.

I have just enough time to sue the pissant out of all of the actives.
See ya in court buddyboi.

Excuse me did you type that you pissed your pants? Oh my bad you indicated you are going to sue the actives.( intro with scary music) Go ahead.... go back to the disgruntled club at tamparetirees.com. and plan your strategy, you'll fit right in. I might suggest that you review pension law as once we all retire from where ever we worked at we are just that retired with no additional rights to benefits. Might I suggest you seek re-employment with another agency that has a pension. Work towards another pension or live within your means. America is the land of opportunity and I am proud of the history of the American work ethic. P.S I presume the Pension Fund is still paying you a pension long after you stopped contributing. P.P.S
As a suggestion you might try to determine how you have suffered a reduction in pension payment or other wrong before you sue us. I would also suggest you read the last Judge's ruling where he pointed out on all of the retiree's allegations that there was no merit to their allegations sooooooooooo save your $$$$$ for a vacation it sounds like you need one :D :D :D

I am a total OUTSIDER who sometimes visits this board and I must confess that I simply DON'T GET IT!

Would someone please explain the issue to me in simple language. This is the way I see it:

1. A TPD officer on active duty goes into DROP and continues to work although he is "retired."

2. At this point his retirement annuity is "set in stone" and he begins to draw it - even though it goes into an account he cannot touch until he actually stops working.

3. There is no longer any money taken from his paycheck as a contribution to the retirement fund because he is "retired."

4. The active duty officers negotiate a change in their retirement annuity, which is retroactive to some point in time that pre-dates the date that the "retired" officer went into DROP. It is a point in time when he was still contributing to the retirement fund.

5. The "retired" officer wants to benefit from that negotiation and receive an increased benefit.

6. The actives and the courts say "No, you get what you bargained for on the day you signed your DROP papers." It was, in effect, "set in stone."


NOW, without arguing the merits of whether or not the retirees' position is right or wrong, is that a correct summary of what happened?

ALSO, are the DROP people who were still working arguing that previous retirees who left prior to the retroactive negotiation are also eligible for the increased benefit?

IF they are maintaing their claim based upon #4, I can see some merit to their claim.

OTHERWISE, it seems to me that retirees who have left or who entered DROP before the effective (retroactive) date have no legitimate claim.


I'm just trying to understand.

It is simple.


SOME retired guys have taken up a life of crime by attempting Grand theft on the actives.


crooks, bandits, thieves. lucky for us the life accuarials say they won't be around much longer.

You would figure they would spend their last days doing something relaxing.

To LOOKING FROM THE OUTSIDE. Post your question on the retirees website, www.tamparetiree.com (http://www.tamparetiree.com), and you'll get the truth. Not some B.S., twisted answer from upset, active employees.

To LOOKING FROM THE OUTSIDE. Post your question on the retirees website, www.tamparetiree.com (http://www.tamparetiree.com), and you'll get the truth. Not some B.S., twisted answer from upset, active employees.


Why can't a retiree post an answer right here?

Did I make a mistake in my understanding of the issues or not?

Retiree's can post here. But it'll start all the crap that usually follows. The retiree's site will give it to you straight and you won't have a bunch of children babbling about how the retirees are stealing THEIR money and they're greedy old *******s etc. You can also find their board members names and email addresses and they'll be happy to explain things correctly without the vindictiveness you have here. Unfortunately, these boards have degraded into a name calling fantasy land where a few do their best to destroy the good a majority do. Check out the site. Although not as active as this site, there's no childish games there.

Baloney. The difference between the retiree's site and this is that on this site, free exchange of ideas and discussion is possible, and frequent.
The retiree's site is registration only and monitored by their gestapo. If your post doesn't conform to their idea of what is right, it is deleted. If your opinion is different than the board's, it is deleted. And you have to prove your identity to the webmaster prior to posting. Pretty humorous considering the crap slinging retirees that post here NEVER use their name.

Nice try :roll:

Looking from the outside, you ask relative questions and I'll try to provide some answers.... Our pension is separate from the State's plan. Many years ago additional changes for benefits could have been made by our Board of Trustees and some changes were in fact made. When the state fund introduced their version of the DROP plan the fire and police unions wanted a DROP plan. The Pension Board was asked to make changes which could have to be done through the legislature. The trustees did not want to get involved even though it would have benefited the fire and police trustees. So the unions notified the city that under collective bargaining they would negotiate for additional benefits and did so. Now only additional pension benefit changes have to be negotiated between the unions and the city. The Pension Board only takes care of pension business and makes sure that the new benefits are paid for with new money from the actives and the city. THis is done through actuary studies and must be approved by the State Actuary. There are some people in the DROP that received the 3.15% multiplier after the actives agreed by vote to include them. THose members are also members of the unions when they were included. Some retirees are upset that they did not receive the multiplier but they had already retired and were receiving benefits.Some members retired within days of the deadline and also were excluded. It was an unfortunate series of events in the negotiation process but the line has to end somewhere.
The retirees are not in the union and to include them means that the actives and the city would have to pay extra money now and each time to include them. The retirees have not received a reduced benefit. Some retirees believe that it should be an entitlement to receive additional benefits etc. but in the pension world that is not a reality. several retirees, who were considered leaders on the fire and police departments when they were working hold grudges for our union leaders thinking outside the box and negotiating better benefits after they retired. They had their chance but apparently were not interested. Now that we have a great retirement system and benefits they are upset. Some of their leaders of the retiree association have made accusations of criminal activity by members of the union and pension board, accusations that are unfounded. They slung the mud and demand respect because they retired and feel respect is their entitlement. In my world I respect the majority of the retirees. There is a minority of them that I do not respect because of their behavior. Hope this helps.

Nice try again. More BS. More lies. More half truths.

Thanks, Info. Man.

I'll probably never completely grasp the entire picture, but I see that it becomes complex because of the factors of:

*DROPped but still working

*DROPped and no longer working

*Union member in one of those catagories

*Non-union member in one of those catagories

*Union negotiation involvement

*Pension board no longer involved in benefit determination

And probably some other stuff that I would only understand if it affected me directly.

Hope I didn't stir things up too much.

I don't get it, how are we (active) the liars here. As has been stated numerous times in this post along you have had your day in court TWICE and both judges, who happen to be intrepreters of the law have seen thru your cloud of smoke.

Get over it you are not entitled the multiplier. Take your pension check and worry about rainfall amounts. YOU ARE RETIRED!

By the way our wonderful union is trying to get us an allowance for boots, I see a forthcoming lawsuit because the retirees need a new pair of sandles or penny loafers.

Stop the insanity.

This subject is way off the original topic, but since everyone seems to be posting about pension benefits, I'll continue on that path.

I like to use this analogy (and I'm prepared for all of the juvenile anonymous slams related to it, I can even think of a few myself).

The pension is like a ship. It was originally built by the City for its employees. The pension board was created to steer this ship.

Collective bargaining came along and is utilized to maintain the ship. The City is still onboard, but now the employees have a much larger say in what is done with this ship. The legislature is still onboard as our life raft. The pension board still gets to steer the ship.

The only time the pension board can increase any benefit is when the legislature passes a bill that is signed by the governor. There are many times in the past that the pension board has enacted improvements that were required by laws that originated in Tallahassee, not Tampa. The most notable was 99-01, the first bill signed into law by Jeb Bush.

Yes, at times the pension board uses its knowledge and information to help guide the design process. That participation is usually to keep the ship on course and to advise against changes that might interrupt the ship's mission. Much of this is accomplished through the pension board's professionals. The state retirement office also is onboard to help with that portion of the mission.

I'm proud to say that as of the Oct 2005 valuation, the actuary reports that our pension fund is 113% funded. Much of the credit goes to the professionals that our pension board hires. So in my opinion, the pension board is doing a pretty good job. But I'm just one vote.

WELL,

Finally someone is taking notice of the dictatorship on the Ex. Board. He is not accountable to anyone and can and does say what he wants. He has an exclusive job with all the perks you should want and possibly want to look at........

He is in DROP and will be the so called leader of your union until he has to leave office, but hold on...I bet he already has a deal to stay on the job as another retiree does and continue to get paid for two jobs????? Or will he say "There's nothin in it for me".....Ha Ha

Now you're starting to get it :lol:

Actually, Kevin is not in the DROP.