POLL: Do LEOs have the same rights as citizens?

[Sysop]

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Yes, they have the same rights


please show me where the Consitution says other wise

[the-phantom]

The fact is as a leo you should conduct yourself to a higher standard. No leo's should not have the same rights. They give up those rights when they put on the badge.

I am not a registered user so I can not access these polls but I felt compelled to comment on what the Phantom posted. You have a right to your opinion Phantom and I respect that right. Many citizens over the years have fought for your right to express your opinion.

I served in the U.S. Military for many many years. During my time in service I was deployed to alot of places. When your in the military it does indeed seem that you give up alot of your rights to support the mission and the chain of command. It's an understood part of service to our country. I find it's sort of ironic that the very people defending the rights of our citizenship may willingly have to give up some of their rights to do so. If you have ever been in the military then you know it's nothing like a civilian job of which law enforcement is a part.

I know, I know. You say law enforcement is a paramilitary organization that embraces some of the military rules. To a certain degree yes. But being in law enforcement I still have the ability to call in sick or quit whenever I want. I have the ability to address grievences at work and choose without question what and where I wish to travel in my off time. The military provides for none of that. Don't beleave me, just ask any soldier or marine when was the last time he called in sick to his first sergeant or if he is allowed to travel anywhere he desires on his days off. The military had a fifty mile rule when I was in.

After my military service I went to work in the civilian sector until I began my new career in law enforcement. I love this job and plan on being here until retirement. While law enforcement organizations attempt to follow the military model they are more related to the civilian side of the house. After being "employed" in all three phases as I desribed above I have come to this opinion. Between the military and law enforcement field I have "served" the public well over 20 years. I have several more to go before I can enjoy retirement.

My question to you Phantom is this. I will be in my mid fifties when I finally retire. I went into the military at 18 years of age. Between the miltary and the law enforcement career field I will have spent the vast majority of my life protecting and serving the public, and loving every minute of it I might add. But why should I be afforded less rights than the cable guy or the electric company lineman or the computer programer or the home builder or the real estate saleperson or etc.etc.etc.....

You are right in the point that you make about law enforcement needing to conduct themselves in a professional manner both on and off the job. We should be held to a higher standard of conduct by the vary nature of our job but does that mean we should enjoy less or restricted rights? In my opinion I don't think so. We should enjoy the same protection of law as the rest of the citizens by the very laws that we are sworn to enforce. If we break those laws we should be more than held accountable we should be made an example of but please don't tell me I have to give up my rights for most of my life so you can enjoy yours.

Stay Safe

good post

My question to you Phantom is this. I will be in my mid fifties when I finally retire. I went into the military at 18 years of age. Between the miltary and the law enforcement career field I will have spent the vast majority of my life protecting and serving the public, and loving every minute of it I might add. But why should I be afforded less rights than the cable guy or the electric company lineman or the computer programer or the home builder or the real estate saleperson or etc.etc.etc.....

You are right in the point that you make about law enforcement needing to conduct themselves in a professional manner both on and off the job. We should be held to a higher standard of conduct by the vary nature of our job but does that mean we should enjoy less or restricted rights? In my opinion I don't think so. We should enjoy the same protection of law as the rest of the citizens by the very laws that we are sworn to enforce. If we break those laws we should be more than held accountable we should be made an example of but please don't tell me I have to give up my rights for most of my life so you can enjoy yours.

Stay Safe


The answer is simple: The limitations on your rights are not matters of law. Legally, you have the same rights as other citizens.

However, you relinquished some of those rights as A CONDITION OF YOUR EMPLOYMENT in the particular job field of law enforcement.

You knew coming in that there were Rules, Regulations, Standard Operating Procedures, Qualification Standards, etc. that must be adhered to in order to be a law enforcement officer.

By accepting the offer of employment you also accepted the Conditions of Employment.

You correctly stated that you can resign from this job in a manner unavailable to you when you were in the military. In order to free yourself from the restrictions placed on you as Conditions of Employment - simply resign.

Otherwise, live within those conditions. They are a part of the job. Violations of the conditions are not a matter of law - they are a matter of discipline.

As a matter of fact, most other jobs also have their own conditions of employment although they are generally less rigorous than those in law enforcement. Do you think IBM doesn't have rules of conduct for their employees?

I hope I have explained this clearly.

:idea:

Well Riddler you are wrong. THis is a job. At on time many felt the LOE's could not organize. Guess what, the courts, the civilian courts, said wrong we have rights. At one time if you called me at night to come to work and I did not, I could be hung out to dry. Guess what, once again the civilian courts said not if I do not answer the phone, and if you want me on standby the same courts have said let them pay you.

Now you can regulate how I am at work with rules and regulations, but when it comes to my time you can not regulate me as long as I obey the laws or a few rules such as you limiting my powers while off duty. But you see when I try to take actions when off duty, I really am on duty, and thus the rules are in play.

Think about what you are saying, as from your answer you are from the old school when depuites could not live together or date or drink at certain places outside of work. I remember when you could not hold this job if you backed someone other than the sheriff at election time. Those rules have all been torn down by court rulings many years ago. That was then and this is now, it is time for you to move forward and except being a deputy for what it really is......a job, not a way of life, but a job, a job one can love if they want or hate if they want, just as long as the hate stays at home on not effect others at the job site.

Now you can regulate how I am at work with rules and regulations, but when it comes to my time you can not regulate me as long as I obey the laws or a few rules such as you limiting my powers while off duty. But you see when I try to take actions when off duty, I really am on duty, and thus the rules are in play.



Let's try to modify your confusion. I am not the Riddler; I posted as ANSWER to the Riddle.

Moving on - you are deceiving yourself if you believe you can break the Rules & Regulations, SOPs, etc. that govern your OFF DUTY BEHAVIOR with impunity. We are talking about Conditions of Employment, not laws.

Don't think so? Try getting caught doing off duty LE jobs without going through the off duty process. Try getting caught making an off duty public speech using disparaging ethnic references. These things are not illegal, they are just against the RULES of this job.

The fact that you don't REALLY believe that you have absolute off duty freedom of speech is demonstrated by the absence of your registration with a true name for your postings on this board. Go ahead. Register with your true name and then post a message that violates an SOP, such as showing disrespect to a superior or using ethnic slurs. It's not against the law.

Oh, I forgot. You would never violate a rule when off duty.

:wink:

The answer is simple: The limitations on your rights are not matters of law. Legally, you have the same rights as other citizens.

However, you relinquished some of those rights as A CONDITION OF YOUR EMPLOYMENT in the particular job field of law enforcement.


My question to you is this answer man. I've been working under SOP's and Rules and Regulations for along time. I know that they are a valuable tool for employers in the work place. The ultimate question for society in general, not just the law enforcement field, is how far can an employer influence an employees private life via these work related policies? Every civilian or governmental organization has rules and regulations for it's employees that they must adhere to while at work. Of that I think we would both agree.

Every company or agency has a certain image that they wish to project to the public in order to better accomplish their mission. Wheter it's waiting tables or protecting others. You stated above that the limitations of my rights are not matters of law. I tend to disagree with that statement for the simple reasoning that the U.S. Constitution, which is one of this countries highest regarded legal documents, guarantees each citizen certain rights and liberties. While I more than agree with you on the point of while I am at work I must obey all of my employers policies, what about when I'm at home or at the beach, or at the movies, or at the local sports bar? What obligation do we as employees have to our employers then? Do employers have a right to restrict your actions or activities during your personal time?

All of us are required to obey the laws as set forth by our national, state and local governments at all times. Wheter we are at work or not. But where does an employers administrative rules end? I think it's a question that will not be an easy one and will require some people in the legal professionon far above yours or my pay grade to answer. You make some interesting points answer man but does'nt mean I fully agree with you. Which is my right.

For the "answerman"

The examples you gave are very poor. 1st lets look at off duty. You are using your powers that the Sheriff has extended to you, so yes he can limit your use of powers that are granted to him and then handed to you.

2nd....standing at "Speakers Corner" and shouting racial slurs can also go back to the type of person you are on the job. Courts have already upheld that you can be removed for being racial as it leads to a pattern of how you would treat the general public.

But if I do have the right to speak against my boss or supervisors without revealing who I may be, I just can not do it at work. That is why the government has the "Whistle Blowers Act", so when an employee feels that an unjust has been done, say in an IA case that is swept under the rug because of friendship there is a recourse the person can take without actions taken against them.

The real question here is not about what we can or can not do after we leave work and park the car. The question is can the Sheriff go "fishing" by using a court order to find the identities of those on a board that may or may not be an extension of his Office. This is like a deputy asking for banks records for everyone in Hillsborough County to see who has deposited possible illeagel money into an account. Your "fishing". We act on percentages on how much time should be spent to solving a crime with the information known. So lets say the 2nd DCA does rule in favor of HCSO. So what! What do you do with the information? What if this information leads you to a home that has more than one employee? What happens in the investigation leads you to a home that has an unsecured wireless system? What happens if they all tell you it wasn't me? Do you find all at fault that had access to the computer? Do you keep a record of who possibly was involved and then never allow these employees a promotion or a transfer to a better job, even though you are not certain they were involved? Is this how HCSO handles the investigations of crime within the County? I think not. Our investigations are at the highest level of professionalism. We should never assume anything when making the arrest. We act on facts, and the fact is how can you show who sat at the keyboard at the time the entries were made?

And you ask, why not post my name to test the waters of my rights? Because that is my "right", just as I see you have the "right" to omit your name.

Good question according to the Supreme Court, a Police Officer has the same rights as a private citizen, but an agency could take it upon itself to overlook those rights, such as Sheriff Gee, and his staff, as Law Enforcement Officers, the call for duty is pretty basic, and quite simple: protect the public, protect peoples rights, and the Constitution of the United States, and the States Constitution, and States Laws. Now as far as the Sheriff wanting to get the names of people who have posted "RACIAL SLURS", on the website. I have to tell you, its really a joke. The Sheriff is an elected official, really no longer a police officer, and you really don't have to be a cop to be Sheriff. The Sheriff is a Politician, and as Harry Truman said "If you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen". Critisism goes with the job, so if you don't like it, you better learn to love it, or get out of the Office.You don't really have to get the names of people on the website, anybody remember Sgt Robert E Lee, who at role calls would openly refer to Mexican Americans as "BEANERS", and more recently 2004 a D2 Det, referring to black people that he saw on a porch,as" PORCH MONKEYS", and when the Det Sgt found out asked that this not be made an issue out of because he only had 6 months to Retirement.PLEASE Sheriff leave the website alone, remember what your job really is, and if you want to clean up something, start with some of the racisim that exsists within your own office. Your job is to PROTECT THE 1ST AMENDMENT not violate it.

The two posts above are so incoherent, disorganized and replete with false assumptions and irrelevant arguments that it is difficult to refute them with rational discourse. They also appear to have both been written by the same person.

I have decided not to make a point-by-point rebuttal because the posts are so disjointed that it is difficult to identify the "points."

Suffice it to say, you have all of the constitutional rights of any other citizen.

But, you do not have a constitutional right to be employed by the Hillsborough County Sheriff's Office.

In order to be so employed you relinquish your rights to some degree in accordance with rules and regulations which are de facto Conditions of Employment.

You may, at any time, assert your full constitutional rights on any subject. You may, however, subsequently be disciplined by the office - up to an including termination of employment.

In exercising your constitutional rights you have not broken a law and cannot be arrested. However, it is possible that you may have broken a Condition of Employment and you can be disciplined.

I do not understand why some people find this so difficult to understand...............

:!:

You forgot to say that if you are speaking out about something you feel the Office has done that is wrong, and the public needs to know, then you can seek protect under the Whistle Blowers Act and hope you are protected.

And why go "Fishing" via the courts to enforce the policy. For all you know the posters were not employeed by the Office or were retired. LEOAFFAIRS as claimed since day one they do not have the information that is being seeked. So one can only assume that the information is already known by the Office, but can not be used yet because it was gained by means other through proper channels. Then how will this information be used as how can one prove who was sitting at the keyboard typing the stokes? Would it not be funny if someone sat outside the house of a staff member and logged into their wireless system that was left unprotected and typed away. Would that staff member be fired? I think not because nothing is 100% unless the person stands uo and says "it was me me me". It can not be proven. Do you not think that maybe, just maybe the tax payers money of this County can be put to better use?

Have you ever filed anything under the Whistleblowers Act before?
When you do, get back to me..that is...if you aren't on toilet duty.

Answerman, you need to change your name to clueless man, what don't you understand. The post was clear, the Sheriff should be cleaning out his own closet in his Office, instead of using the feeble excuse of looking for it in the internet, and the incidents provided. I was witness to. No employer has the right to rob you of your civil rights, unless you sign a contract with that employer, giving those rights up. dude, you must be trying to kiss somebodies ass for a promotion, wipe the crap off of your lips, and wake up.

LEOs have more rights than civilians. You can bust down a homeowners door in the middle of the night and kill the man and go, OPPS, wrong house and hind behind that badge can't you? We can't. You should be held to a higher standard and face triple penalties for infractions of the law. All the bad apples out there make you all look like a bunch of criminals with badges.

[djamelo]

Yes, they have the same rights


please (https://www.bznewz.com) show me where the Consitution says other wise