FOP vs PBA

[Phaedrus11]

As many in the department know, a movement has spread of members joining the Miami Dade Police Benevolent Association (MD-PBA). These members have begun the process of having the MD-PBA challenge the Miami Police Fraternal Order of Police (FOP) for their right to be the bargaining unit. While I am a proud member of both organizations my preference has always been that we should run our own shop. My opinion is, by far, in the minority. The purpose of this post is to give facts about the process and answer any questions that any member might have about what is going on. I also haven’t been ripped in a few weeks so I want to invite my attackers to pound me for awhile.

Labor organizations are governed by FL statue 447 (Part II for public employees, that’s us) The Public Employees Relations Commission (PERC) is the governing body in Florida. PERC registers Unions, qualifying them to pursue representing employees. PERC also has an Elections division. This division conducts elections when public employees express the desire to be represented by a union. All PERC information can be located on their website http://perc.myflorida.com/ and the state statue governing public employees can be found here http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0400-0499/0447/0447PARTIIContentsIndex.html

Some time ago multiple members approached the MD-PBA and asked them to act as their bargaining unit. Unions in South Florida, Miami Dade in particular, have generally adhered to the “backyard” agreement. You don’t try to get our members and we won’t try to get yours. I don’t believe the MD-PBA solicited these applications nor did they advocate the collection of “cards”. The members, for their own legitimate reasons, decided that they no longer wanted the FOP to represent them as a bargaining unit and began to submit the request to PERC and the MD-PBA to become their bargaining unit.
If 30% of a bargaining unit (roughly 320 officers in Miami) requests representation by another union, PERC will hold an election. That election is usually held within one month after the request. The request must be made 150-90 days before the expiration of the current Collective Bargaining Agreement (CBA). The request can also be made if the bargaining unit is not currently under a CBA. The request is made by filling out a “card”. You may have seen these around the station. The card is confidential, and gets submitted to PERC, where it stays regardless of the outcome. If 30% of a bargaining unit requests representation from an outside union, PERC will hold an election containing the current bargaining unit, any union with sufficient petitions, and a third option of “No Representation”. The vote is held by PERC and the organization with 50% of the ballots +1 becomes the bargaining unit.

Why is this happening?
I can articulate many reasons why this is happening now and in time we will get to them. The underlying issue with all of those reasons is the mistrust of the current leadership and the methods of operation. It’s a very simple adage that I have been screaming for a year now. The basis of trust in a union lies with the fair and free elections of its leadership. We have many problems in our union but nothing will change until we have leadership in place that has the trust and confidence of its members. I believe that when they decided to not address their election issues, this process started. When the process is flawed, even those that are legitimately elected are looked upon with suspicion and contempt.

I was thrilled when I received the email from the union president last week stating that he would be open to reform and wanted to start a committee to enact change. While it may already be too late I retained some hope that dramatic reform could take place and the current union could be salvaged. Then I attended the meeting. The resistance to change remained. When I asked the secretary if he felt the elections procedures were free and fair, he stated unequivocally yes. That statement doomed the process. We cannot begin to fix the myriad of cancers plaguing our union if the leadership resist change and is unwilling to listen to its membership.

It will break my heart if (when?) the FOP loses it bargaining rights. It was once a proud organization that is crumbling at its foundation. I don’t want to be the one to tell those former members that we lost our bargaining rights to an outside entity. The plane has taken off and the bomb will soon be armed, if it isn’t already. I still hold out hope that we can fix our problems but I’m becoming more and more skeptical as they days progress.

I will respond to this thread as long as the MODs keep it up. I have also reposted it on my old blog http://www.miamipolicefop.blogspot.com I don’t know all the answers but I will do my best to find out. If you would like to ask the MD-PBA leadership any questions (I have a lot of questions for them) they can be contacted at (305)593-0044. They will also be holding a question and answer session at their hall for Miami Police members with questions on Tuesday October 25th at 10:30 hrs. 10680 NW 25th St

I guess Casanovas cant have his own thought on the issue because it aint yours. I always thought you were a asnake but you have proven it to me now.

I guess Casanovas cant have his own thought on the issue because it aint yours. I always thought you were a asnake but you have proven it to me now.
Casanovas is a *****! Frank how does the Mayor taste?

By the way the FOP can challenge each and every card so they are not confidential as you are leading people to believe.

maybe javis new car or jrs promotion right when members are being stuck, again, with a grand salami, and you wonder why peolple are going pba..................... :roll: :roll:

Little Danny answer this if you are so upset with elections and everything else why don't you make a suggested by law change. You talk and talk here is your chance to finally man up and put something behind all the talking and crying poor me you do.

Little Danny answer this if you are so upset with elections and everything else why don't you make a suggested by law change. You talk and talk here is your chance to finally man up and put something behind all the talking and crying poor me you do.

It boggles my mind that u r trying to put the spin on this like it's Danny's war. clearly u have attended not one meeting. several members on many occasions have tried to implement changes only to be verbally ridiculed and bashed. the board members extend phony invitations to "come to the meetings and get involved and learn about the process" when in fact that is NOT what they want. If u dare ask a question u r met with disdain - how dare u question me?! This movement doesn't belong to one or a few individuals it belongs to hundreds of members that r fed up with the corrupt back door deals that negatively affect the vast majority of the membership. Regarding talking and manning up maybe that is advice u should take yourself. "Danny" as u so lovingly refer to him as takes a verbal chastising on a monthly basis-something u clearly don't have the internal fortitude to bear. he does so in his attempts to suggest AND bring about change. WOW how dare he.

Change is a scary thing so that is y members need to ask questions of the PBA. Believing the scare tactics used by the FOP is just a bad life decision. Knowledge is power. when ur empowered they can no longer scare u into submission.

The scare tactic above saying the cards aren't confidential is a perfect example. sounds like a threat. who r the FOP board members going to target? the hundreds of members that signed the cards? by the way that's called union busting & it's ILLEGAL.

For those of u reading this I implore u to get to the truth of the questions that u and ur circle of friends have. Only the truth will bring about the much needed change for all of us.

That is union busting! And if they challenge the over 350 cards just submitted who cares! Challenge it all you will find is the members want change! We pay the dues we are the voice not what YOU say and want done! NO MORE- NO MAS! You have stood there quietly as everyone of you took an oath to help our membership and you did not say anything nor fight the fight that you all said you would. Instead you teamed up with the mayor to oust our chief then you say you are fighting the mayor tooth and nail! You made a decision to recall the mayor before this and still we wait for the fight! Now its to back another canidate for elections. Let's volunteer for her, WHERE'S THE FIGHT FOR US!

The FOP health trust is defined and governed under state law and is in place because of the type of organization the FOP is. If the pba were to come in the health trust would have to be dissolved and then we would go to the city insurance. Could the pba try a health trust again maybe but they failed at theirs big time almost as bad and quickly as fire's did. You want change learn first then start the change. Guess you would throw out the baby along with the bath water because you think the waters dirty. By the way the pension would have lots of changes and would no longer be controlled by the members but by the city and pba. Man the city would love all this you sure the cities not pushing this so they could wipe out Gates and control it all over again and bankrupt it again. Way to go Jeff and other fools I should have voted for you for the one percent board. By the way how do I know this about the pension and health trust I ASKED THE ATTORNEY THAT SAT AT THE BARGAINING TABLE HE WHOLE TIME AT THE FOP MEETING ON WEDNESDAY NIGHT. He has a law degree dont think you do, do you.

The fact is we have a very weak and divided union because of the egos on the union board. The city politicians laugh at our union and its small click. IT IS TO LATE !! we have been asking and pleading for change for a couple of years now. ENOUGH IS ENOUGH, The PBA has over 50 Lawyers on its staff and they are a united force. When the city politicians now go against the PBA it will be an organization with several thousand strong county wide NOT two guys with egos doing back door deals. Attack Kerr all you want this is not his doing but 350 City of MIami officers are tired of the BS and more will follow. Now when you get involved in a incident you will speak to an attorney not an immature kid or a wanna be thug.

WE SHOULD BE UNITED

[Phaedrus11]

I guess Casanovas cant have his own thought on the issue because it aint yours. I always thought you were a asnake but you have proven it to me now.
On the contrary. I respect Franks opinions and I respect the fact that he will speak his mind regardless of if the opinion is popular or not. Unfortunately, as a member of the board assigned to reforming the election procedure, his opinion that the election process isn’t flawed will doom the organization. As far as being a snake, I’m Irish, we don’t know about snakes. Patrick took care of those.


By the way the FOP can challenge each and every card so they are not confidential as you are leading people to believe.
This is true, there is a way to challenge the authenticity of the cards and the election itself can also be appealed. If the purpose of this post is to intimidate the members, I don’t think it is a good strategy. It will have the opposite effect and could possibly be illegal. I would imagine when the collection is complete, it will far exceed the requisite 30%. This movement is not a few disgruntled cops hanging at the coffee shop, it is the entire department. North Central South, CID, SOS, Admin, Rookies, Veterans, everyone is signing. It is department-wide.
Instead of threatening them or making intimidating statements, why not try to figure out where this discontent came from. I can’t say this loud enough, reform or perish.

Little Danny answer this if you are so upset with elections and everything else why don't you make a suggested by law change. You talk and talk here is your chance to finally man up and put something behind all the talking and crying poor me you do.
I did one better, in December I implemented the forming of a committee to reform elections. That committee failed to make any legitimate changes. Furthermore, I drafted the appropriate wording to affect the by-law change and provided it at the last meeting to the member that inquired about it. If you like, I will post the change request here as the technicality of by-law wording can be cumbersome. The problem is, it can’t come from me. I cannot force the board to change they must look into themselves and realize the future of this union is in their hands. They must be willing to reform. In my career, no member has successfully changed a by-law that didn’t come out of committee.

Yellow is a good color for you to use when you post your name I have heard so much trash come from your lips over the years beside it matches the stripe down your back. I think Avila is still waiting for you in the parking lot.

Yellow is a good color for you to use when you post your name I have heard so much trash come from your lips over the years beside it matches the stripe down your back. I think Avila is still waiting for you in the parking lot.
Avila is yellow, nuff said!

WHY ARE WE GOING THROUGH THIS TRENCH WAR. THEY GAIN A YARD, YOU GAIN A YARD, YOU TRY TO TELL THEM WHATS WRONG, THEY HAVE AN EXCUSE FOR EVERYTHING, ETC, ETC. THE RESULTS SPEAK FOR THEMSELVES. YOU PEOPLE KEEP GOING TO MEETINGS EVERYTIME SOMEONE SAYS THERE IS GOING TO BE A SIGNIFICANT CHANGE, HA! ONLY TO SEE THE SAME CRAP, AND SAME ARGUMENTS. HAS THE FOP LED BY EXAMPLE? WHY DONT THEY OPEN ALL THEIR BOOKS WITH AUTHENTIC RECEIPTS, RETURNED CHECKS ACCOUNTING FOR EVERY DOLLAR, INCLUDNG THE FREE MONIES TO THEMSELVES? WHY DONT THEY IN WRITING AND IN REALITY SET IN THE BYLAWS , WAIVE GIVING THEMSELVES THAT MONEY AND GET OFF- DUTIES LIKE EVERYONE ELSE?.....YOU KNOW WHY......STOP TRYING TO FORCE THEM INTO CHANGE. THEY'LL NEVER DO IT. YOU PEOPLE EXHIBIT A SEVERE CASE OF "BATTERED WIFE" SYNDROME! ITS EASIER TO LEAVE. TRUST ME, THINGSARE BETTER ON THE OTHER SIDE.

WHY ARE WE GOING THROUGH THIS TRENCH WAR. THEY GAIN A YARD, YOU GAIN A YARD, YOU TRY TO TELL THEM WHATS WRONG, THEY HAVE AN EXCUSE FOR EVERYTHING, ETC, ETC. THE RESULTS SPEAK FOR THEMSELVES. YOU PEOPLE KEEP GOING TO MEETINGS EVERYTIME SOMEONE SAYS THERE IS GOING TO BE A SIGNIFICANT CHANGE, HA! ONLY TO SEE THE SAME CRAP, AND SAME ARGUMENTS. HAS THE FOP LED BY EXAMPLE? WHY DONT THEY OPEN ALL THEIR BOOKS WITH AUTHENTIC RECEIPTS, RETURNED CHECKS ACCOUNTING FOR EVERY DOLLAR, INCLUDNG THE FREE MONIES TO THEMSELVES? WHY DONT THEY IN WRITING AND IN REALITY SET IN THE BYLAWS , WAIVE GIVING THEMSELVES THAT MONEY AND GET OFF- DUTIES LIKE EVERYONE ELSE?.....YOU KNOW WHY......STOP TRYING TO FORCE THEM INTO CHANGE. THEY'LL NEVER DO IT. YOU PEOPLE EXHIBIT A SEVERE CASE OF "BATTERED WIFE" SYNDROME! ITS EASIER TO LEAVE. TRUST ME, THINGSARE BETTER ON THE OTHER SIDE.

You must not come to the meetings because they show their expenses. Nestor Garcia used to complain about that and they sat with him and he went over all the books. No issues. The PBA ain't going to put their bills online and they get like $30,000 per year stipends so boo hoo

The PBA does have a financial report they also give you a copy of the bylaws. The FOP couldnt even give you a copy of the bylaws because it is outdated they never took the time to make all the changes over the years. The FLOP is a big joke, with egos to big to admit they have lost all control. When the FOP is falling apart they have the nerve to invite more politicians to endorse.

[MOD 634]

I will respond to this thread as long as the MODs keep it up


There is absolutely no violations that would render this thread a canidate for deletion.
I couldn't find the TOS violation the previous moderator, mod 558, was using to delete educational threads guess when he departed he took it with him. I think the mods here are quite fair haven't seen any major issues since the departure of the union from this board so hopefully the pattern will continue. (probably just jinxed it)


On a side note anyone can contact me any time and ask any questions. I'll try my best to answer quickly and fairly.


Thank you
Mod 634

Hopefully the departure of the union board from our union will also occur......Yes, the MOD here have been a lot better since boy javi has left.

I was having a conversation today with some lawyers that deal in arbitration. We discussed matters reference the FOP and PBA and there position because the know both sides legal teams stated that the PBA would be a better situation for us NOW! Understanding that we as FOP members going through the perc process. The reason for there statement was that the PBA has lawyers dedicated to arbitration and negotiations. The FOP has very good lawyers and the lawsuits filed have cause. But the rationale of thinking isn't in our interest. They said the our lawyers deal with similar court complaints but don't necessarily have their practice devoted to arbitration. Can the FOP make an arguement?

I was having a conversation today with some lawyers that deal in arbitration. We discussed matters reference the FOP and PBA and there position because the know both sides legal teams stated that the PBA would be a better situation for us NOW! Understanding that we as FOP members going through the perc process. The reason for there statement was that the PBA has lawyers dedicated to arbitration and negotiations. The FOP has very good lawyers and the lawsuits filed have cause. But the rationale of thinking isn't in our interest. They said the our lawyers deal with similar court complaints but don't necessarily have their practice devoted to arbitration. Can the FOP make an arguement?

No, they are to busy eating with the mayor and celebrating the recent promotions.

If we leave the FOP, the lawsuits and grievances will be dropped because there isn't anyone to fund them. The PBA will not have the authority nor will they pay for existing legal bills. I suggest you attend one of the Pba information sessions before giving these anonomous posts any credibility.'

If we leave the FOP, the lawsuits and grievances will be dropped because there isn't anyone to fund them. The PBA will not have the authority nor will they pay for existing legal bills. I suggest you attend one of the Pba information sessions before giving these anonomous posts any credibility.'

This person is correct if the FOP is no longer the bargaining unit they cant continue the law suits. With the pba's legal defense system your request assistance from both the committie and the executive board HAS TO AGREE to approve the request for legal defense. If either one says NO thats it NO APPEAL to the members for an over ride like in the FOP. They paint pretty pictures but in the end its the pba board and NOT THE MEMBERS that run the show.

Does the fop really care about you or your family? Hell no! The problem is what union does. The only way to make change is by force. Sad reality

We need some type of change. The fop is not doing anything for us. Change!!

But they are doing big things for themselves.........

Can't wait to get rid of the FOP executive board. You would think the National FOP would do something about corruption, but I guess not.

I was having a conversation today with some lawyers that deal in arbitration. We discussed matters reference the FOP and PBA and there position because the know both sides legal teams stated that the PBA would be a better situation for us NOW! Understanding that we as FOP members going through the perc process. The reason for there statement was that the PBA has lawyers dedicated to arbitration and negotiations. The FOP has very good lawyers and the lawsuits filed have cause. But the rationale of thinking isn't in our interest. They said the our lawyers deal with similar court complaints but don't necessarily have their practice devoted to arbitration. Can the FOP make an arguement?

The PBA lawyers HAVE to be good at arbitration as the county doesn't have civil service. They fire you. you go to ARBITRATION. Arbitration's intent is to get both sides to give a little and play nice and unless it is "binding arbitration" means nothing. We need to sue for DAMAGES, not arbitration. And think about suing the commissioners PERSONALLY. In contract law, one side cannot change the contract without consent. And the state law Turd breath Mayor is using, violates the 14 th amendment which say "equal protection under law". . HOW? State law only applies to public employees. You cannot have a law just for one group of people, and the state law does just that. You want change, run for FOP office. get a slate of candidates that feel as you do and vote them out. SHOW UP AT A MEETING WITH ALL WHO FEEL AS YOU AND CHANGE THE BOARD! The PBA is under attack by their home membership as I type and are taking another round of cuts, and they just were fired by two agencies, one being state corrections, and sorry,but since I am not sure of the second name, I will not chance posting wrong info, but they are starting lodge. People, no body will take care of you as good as you can take care of yourselves. READ THE BY LAWS, FIRE THE BOARD. SHOW UP, PACKING THE MEETING. But the COUNTY PBA is not the answer. OR just keep moaning and *****ing on here as nameless ****s. YEAH THE C WORD. C-U-N-T-S.

I was having a conversation today with some lawyers that deal in arbitration. We discussed matters reference the FOP and PBA and there position because the know both sides legal teams stated that the PBA would be a better situation for us NOW! Understanding that we as FOP members going through the perc process. The reason for there statement was that the PBA has lawyers dedicated to arbitration and negotiations. The FOP has very good lawyers and the lawsuits filed have cause. But the rationale of thinking isn't in our interest. They said the our lawyers deal with similar court complaints but don't necessarily have their practice devoted to arbitration. Can the FOP make an arguement?

The PBA lawyers HAVE to be good at arbitration as the county doesn't have civil service. They fire you. you go to ARBITRATION. Arbitration's intent is to get both sides to give a little and play nice and unless it is "binding arbitration" means nothing. We need to sue for DAMAGES, not arbitration. And think about suing the commissioners PERSONALLY. In contract law, one side cannot change the contract without consent. And the state law Turd breath Mayor is using, violates the 14 th amendment which say "equal protection under law". . HOW? State law only applies to public employees. You cannot have a law just for one group of people, and the state law does just that. You want change, run for FOP office. get a slate of candidates that feel as you do and vote them out. SHOW UP AT A MEETING WITH ALL WHO FEEL AS YOU AND CHANGE THE BOARD! The PBA is under attack by their home membership as I type and are taking another round of cuts, and they just were fired by two agencies, one being state corrections, and sorry,but since I am not sure of the second name, I will not chance posting wrong info, but they are starting lodge. People, no body will take care of you as good as you can take care of yourselves. READ THE BY LAWS, FIRE THE BOARD. SHOW UP, PACKING THE MEETING. But the COUNTY PBA is not the answer. OR just keep moaning and *****ing on here as nameless ****s. YEAH THE C WORD. C-U-N-T-S.And we are suppose to listen to you? You nameless ****!

KERR WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN HIDING?