Traffic Control

I have been in Law Enforcement 23 years now and spent 11 years in the traffic unit. I understand the importance of traffic control and securing the scene at a crash for the safety of all on scene. With that said, there was a crash on friday 9/10/10 southbound Turnpike just north of the Lantana Toll Plaze that involved a dump truck and another vehicle. Both vehicles were in the right break down lane along with the troopers vehicles. The fire truck was blocking the right lane in which there are only 2 lanes in that area. The drivers were standing along side their vehicles and it appeared that they both were waiting on tow trucks. While the fire truck continued to block the right lane, the Troopers along with the fireman were just leaning against there vehicles chatting and laughing while waiting for these tow trucks. At this point, the traffic was backed up for about 2 miles past the Lake Worth Service Plaza. After I sat in this mess for over 20 minutes in my marked unit, I finally passed the crash to find that the fire truck could have moved sometime ago and resolved this mess quickly. Mind you, this was a friday night at about 5:30PM rush hour traffic.

I thought the main goal for FHP along with any agency is to as soon as possible, clear the lanes for traffic to pass. As I sat there watching them all talking and laughing leaning agianst their cars as the drivers were waiting for tow trucks (as they both had extensive damage), traffic just got worse for NO REASON !!!!!!!!

I have been in Law Enforcement 23 years now and spent 11 years in the traffic unit. I understand the importance of traffic control and securing the scene at a crash for the safety of all on scene. With that said, there was a crash on friday 9/10/10 southbound Turnpike just north of the Lantana Toll Plaze that involved a dump truck and another vehicle. Both vehicles were in the right break down lane along with the troopers vehicles. The fire truck was blocking the right lane in which there are only 2 lanes in that area. The drivers were standing along side their vehicles and it appeared that they both were waiting on tow trucks. While the fire truck continued to block the right lane, the Troopers along with the fireman were just leaning against there vehicles chatting and laughing while waiting for these tow trucks. At this point, the traffic was backed up for about 2 miles past the Lake Worth Service Plaza. After I sat in this mess for over 20 minutes in my marked unit, I finally passed the crash to find that the fire truck could have moved sometime ago and resolved this mess quickly. Mind you, this was a friday night at about 5:30PM rush hour traffic.

I thought the main goal for FHP along with any agency is to as soon as possible, clear the lanes for traffic to pass. As I sat there watching them all talking and laughing leaning agianst their cars as the drivers were waiting for tow trucks (as they both had extensive damage), traffic just got worse for NO REASON !!!!!!!!



You are 100 % correct.

This is has been an ongoing problem for us. We tried to have the fire dept to move their vehicles and and even threaten to write them tickets. They dont want to listen and they tell us its policy and part of their union contract.

I heard about a trooper in Orlando wrote them a ticket and it got ugly.

When they cause a crash and someone gets killed, dish out the $$$ and get cited, maybe that will change.

Traffic Control

I understand your frustrations, but yesterday we had multiple crashes in that area inlcuding a crash where the victim had to be tramahawked, and we were trying to get these crashes under control as quick as we could. They even sent Troopers who were working off duty jobs in the area to come help.

The towing company had problems getting to some of these crashes especially that one because of the firetruck, however we tell fire rescue all the time not to block the lane, but they don't listen to us.

We know you are short handed and we appreciate all your hard work. Please remember that it is your scene once everyone receives the medical attention that require. If the cars are on the side of the roadway and first aid is no longer an issue, I would just tell them to either clear the scene, or clear the lane. I understand that it is policy for them to block a lane for their and your safety, but once their job is done, they need to clear.... Thanks again




Traffic Control

I understand your frustrations, but yesterday we had multiple crashes in that area inlcuding a crash where the victim had to be tramahawked, and we were trying to get these crashes under control as quick as we could. They even sent Troopers who were working off duty jobs in the area to come help.

The towing company had problems getting to some of these crashes especially that one because of the firetruck, however we tell fire rescue all the time not to block the lane, but they don't listen to us.

Sometimes the FD can be a reall pain is the azz !!!!!

if the crash is in a bad spot and there is a risk for add'l crashes then the fire dept will block the lane or lanes until the vehicles are moved and the area is safe.

The crash vehicles were off the roadway along with the troopers vehicles. The drivers were leaning against their cars as FD stood around chatting and blocking traffic. Reminder folks, after fire rescue is done with 1st aid and any hazardous spills, that scene is yours. If they are done, tell them to move out of the roadway. Be safe!!!

Well, I would love to see a Trooper ticket a firefighter at a crash scene, that would be funny and the backlash would put the rogue Trooper in his place. Believe it or not, the fire dept has control of the scene until they deem it necessary to move. A Trooper has absolutely no statutory authority to "make" them move. What are you going to do if they refuse??? Taze them? What if they refuse to sign a citation now that they are not required??? How would that make FHP look??? It has been my experience that fire/rescue tends to leave the scene the second they can. The original poster should have complained to the fire/rescue agency (not FHP), as it is their scene while they deem it so. The firefighters may very well have been "goofing off" but that is on them and not the responsibility of the Trooper to make them move, which he legally cannot.

Btw, the training that I have received at FHP regarding incident command clearly states that Fire/Rescue has jursidiction of a scene until they deem it safe and their services are no longer needed. Show me the statue giving a Trooper (or any Leo in Florida) the power to make a Fire fighter move their apparatus at a scene???

Well, I would love to see a Trooper ticket a firefighter at a crash scene, that would be funny and the backlash would put the rogue Trooper in his place. Believe it or not, the fire dept has control of the scene until they deem it necessary to move. A Trooper has absolutely no statutory authority to "make" them move. What are you going to do if they refuse??? Taze them? What if they refuse to sign a citation now that they are not required??? How would that make FHP look??? It has been my experience that fire/rescue tends to leave the scene the second they can. The original poster should have complained to the fire/rescue agency (not FHP), as it is their scene while they deem it so. The firefighters may very well have been "goofing off" but that is on them and not the responsibility of the Trooper to make them move, which he legally cannot.

Btw, the training that I have received at FHP regarding incident command clearly states that Fire/Rescue has jursidiction of a scene until they deem it safe and their services are no longer needed. Show me the statue giving a Trooper (or any Leo in Florida) the power to make a Fire fighter move their apparatus at a scene???



Finally a well thought out response by a trooper,thank you for not behaving like a Kool-Aid drinker.I wish there were more like you.

The firefighters may very well have been "goofing off" but that is on them and not the responsibility of the Trooper to make them move, which he legally cannot.

If the firefighters were "goofing off" then they are through with their business and no longer in control, as evidenced by your very own words.

The previous poster is correct; this is a continuing problem with the fire departments. Even after the crash vehicles are moved, and the injuried persons are either treated/refusing treatment/secured in a rescue vehicle for transport, the fire truck or rescue transport still blocks 1 or 2 lanes while the fire/rescue personnel complete their paperwork (seen it more than once, don't anyone try to deny it or they are a liar) inside the vehicle instead of moving onto the shoulder and clearing the roadway! Even worse, they will still block 1 or 2 lanes while (get this) the injuried person is inside a rescue transport but the person is not seriously injuried enough to be transported by a county or city rescue transport, so they have to wait for an ambulance. Waiting for an ambulance because the level of injury doesn't meet your agency's criteria for emergency transport is not necessarily a problem, but when the rescue transport can be moved to the shoulder and off the roadway to wait but instead still blocks the lane(s)? Unnecessary, dangerous to ALL, and a total liability to the fire department and the governmental agency that controls them. As a tax payer, I have NO desire to pay out more money because of NO GOOD REASON! I admit, part of if we have brought on ourselves as troopers because some of the newer ones have been trained by the lazier older ones to sit in your patrol car the entire time instead of getting out and establishing a traffic control (perhaps a re-read of the policy manual will refresh their memories as to what their responsibilties are at a scene; it's not the fire fighter's job, it's yours!). This has forced the fire fighters/paramedics to fend for themselves, but by the nature of THEIR jobs and responsibilties they are only focused on the safety of the patient, their crew, and the immediate scene. They are not required to think about the safety of others farther away as a result of the traffic blockage, and congestion that will remain long after the scene is cleared. Therefore, there is no incentive for them to clear the roadway as quickly and safely as possible.
I have had this discussion with a prior troop major to see if he would address the problem, and with HSMV General Council to clarify what the Department's liablilty was on this position. The responses were similar: it is a "shared" scene, and we have to be careful. I have followed their advice, and I'm sorry if any fire fighter/paramedic gets offended at reading what I'm about to say, but the bottom line is you gotta do what you gotta do, and I gotta do what I gotta do. I have an in-car camera. I make sure it is running when I arrive at a scene (what ever it is) to document what I saw and what the conditions were when I arrived. I then shut it off and perform my funcions and I normally do and are REQUIRED to do, and that includes accessing the scene to see what I can do to clear the roadway as QUICKLY and SAFELY as possible. If the fire department has lanes blocked, I document it by advising my dispatcher of it and which lanes they have blocked. If there is no further need to have the roadway blocked and the fire department STILL has it blocked, I again document it by advising the dispatcher the roadway is ready to be cleared, all vehicles involved are moved, and the fire department still has the roadway blocked. I check with the fire lieutenant/captain in charge, advise them the roadway is ready to be opened, and get an ETA of how much longer they will be. I also advise my dispatcher the fire department has been notified the roadway is ready to be opened and what they say their ETA is to clear. I already have the name of the Lieutenant or Captain of the fire department for my crash report, so NOW if there is an incident that happens as a result of the roadway being un-necessarily blocked and the attorneys representing the newly injuried parties start digging and deposing, the responsibility is properly shifted to where it belongs. Not only is there nothing wrong with this, it is in fact the CORRECT thing to do and the CORRECT way to do it. Bottom line: do what you've got to do to protect the public (first), yourself, and the Department. Let the fire/rescue personnel answer for themselves and their department; they have their own attorneys and unions. As you were.

Well, I would love to see a Trooper ticket a firefighter at a crash scene, that would be funny and the backlash would put the rogue Trooper in his place. Believe it or not, the fire dept has control of the scene until they deem it necessary to move. A Trooper has absolutely no statutory authority to "make" them move. What are you going to do if they refuse??? Taze them? What if they refuse to sign a citation now that they are not required??? How would that make FHP look??? It has been my experience that fire/rescue tends to leave the scene the second they can. The original poster should have complained to the fire/rescue agency (not FHP), as it is their scene while they deem it so. The firefighters may very well have been "goofing off" but that is on them and not the responsibility of the Trooper to make them move, which he legally cannot.

Btw, the training that I have received at FHP regarding incident command clearly states that Fire/Rescue has jursidiction of a scene until they deem it safe and their services are no longer needed. Show me the statue giving a Trooper (or any Leo in Florida) the power to make a Fire fighter move their apparatus at a scene???
Really? Better read F.S.S. 316.072(5), which reads:
"(5)AUTHORIZED EMERGENCY VEHICLES.—

(a)1.The driver of an authorized emergency vehicle, when responding to an emergency call, when in the pursuit of an actual or suspected violator of the law, or when responding to a fire alarm, but not upon returning from a fire;

2.A medical staff physician or technician of a medical facility licensed by the state when responding to an emergency in the line of duty in his or her privately owned vehicle, using red lights as authorized in s. 316.2398; or

3.The driver of an authorized law enforcement vehicle, when conducting a nonemergency escort, to warn the public of an approaching motorcade;

may exercise the privileges set forth in this section, but subject to the conditions herein stated.

(b)The driver of a vehicle specified in paragraph (a), except when otherwise directed by a police officer, may:

1.Park or stand, irrespective of the provisions of this chapter;

2.Proceed past a red or stop signal or stop sign, but only after slowing down as may be necessary for safe operation;

3.Exceed the maximum speed limits so long as the driver does not endanger life or property;

4.Disregard regulations governing direction or movement or turning in specified directions, so long as the driver does not endanger life or property.

(c)The foregoing provisions shall not relieve the driver of a vehicle specified in paragraph (a) from the duty to drive with due regard for the safety of all persons, nor shall such provisions protect the driver from the consequences of his or her reckless disregard for the safety of others.

Per your request, I just "showed you."

I have never had a problem with asking the FD to clear a lane. As a matter of fact, The quicker I ask them they seem to be happy to clear and leave. I think the problem is that some troopers are just afraid to ask. The worst case is they say no. I have NEVER had a problem. Most of the time they are there trying to protect you. If you tell them they can clear, they will. Just ASK !!!!!






The previous poster is correct; this is a continuing problem with the fire departments. Even after the crash vehicles are moved, and the injuried persons are either treated/refusing treatment/secured in a rescue vehicle for transport, the fire truck or rescue transport still blocks 1 or 2 lanes while the fire/rescue personnel complete their paperwork (seen it more than once, don't anyone try to deny it or they are a liar) inside the vehicle instead of moving onto the shoulder and clearing the roadway! Even worse, they will still block 1 or 2 lanes while (get this) the injuried person is inside a rescue transport but the person is not seriously injuried enough to be transported by a county or city rescue transport, so they have to wait for an ambulance. Waiting for an ambulance because the level of injury doesn't meet your agency's criteria for emergency transport is not necessarily a problem, but when the rescue transport can be moved to the shoulder and off the roadway to wait but instead still blocks the lane(s)? Unnecessary, dangerous to ALL, and a total liability to the fire department and the governmental agency that controls them. As a tax payer, I have NO desire to pay out more money because of NO GOOD REASON! I admit, part of if we have brought on ourselves as troopers because some of the newer ones have been trained by the lazier older ones to sit in your patrol car the entire time instead of getting out and establishing a traffic control (perhaps a re-read of the policy manual will refresh their memories as to what their responsibilties are at a scene; it's not the fire fighter's job, it's yours!). This has forced the fire fighters/paramedics to fend for themselves, but by the nature of THEIR jobs and responsibilties they are only focused on the safety of the patient, their crew, and the immediate scene. They are not required to think about the safety of others farther away as a result of the traffic blockage, and congestion that will remain long after the scene is cleared. Therefore, there is no incentive for them to clear the roadway as quickly and safely as possible.
I have had this discussion with a prior troop major to see if he would address the problem, and with HSMV General Council to clarify what the Department's liablilty was on this position. The responses were similar: it is a "shared" scene, and we have to be careful. I have followed their advice, and I'm sorry if any fire fighter/paramedic gets offended at reading what I'm about to say, but the bottom line is you gotta do what you gotta do, and I gotta do what I gotta do. I have an in-car camera. I make sure it is running when I arrive at a scene (what ever it is) to document what I saw and what the conditions were when I arrived. I then shut it off and perform my funcions and I normally do and are REQUIRED to do, and that includes accessing the scene to see what I can do to clear the roadway as QUICKLY and SAFELY as possible. If the fire department has lanes blocked, I document it by advising my dispatcher of it and which lanes they have blocked. If there is no further need to have the roadway blocked and the fire department STILL has it blocked, I again document it by advising the dispatcher the roadway is ready to be cleared, all vehicles involved are moved, and the fire department still has the roadway blocked. I check with the fire lieutenant/captain in charge, advise them the roadway is ready to be opened, and get an ETA of how much longer they will be. I also advise my dispatcher the fire department has been notified the roadway is ready to be opened and what they say their ETA is to clear. I already have the name of the Lieutenant or Captain of the fire department for my crash report, so NOW if there is an incident that happens as a result of the roadway being un-necessarily blocked and the attorneys representing the newly injuried parties start digging and deposing, the responsibility is properly shifted to where it belongs. Not only is there nothing wrong with this, it is in fact the CORRECT thing to do and the CORRECT way to do it. Bottom line: do what you've got to do to protect the public (first), yourself, and the Department. Let the fire/rescue personnel answer for themselves and their department; they have their own attorneys and unions. As you were.

Yeah, go ahead and use that statue, which clearly states "when responding to an emergency call..." Obviously once the scene has been established they no longer are "responding" rather they (fire rescue) are in control until they deem it okay to turn the scene over to the investigating leo.

Here are several reasons you (SO FLA Trooper) have no clue on this subject at hand:

1. If you used that statue to charge a firefighter for not moving the apparatus you would be laughed out of court all day long, because you clearly don't understand law, possibly the subject of a lawsuit.

2. You failed to properly understand your training you received at FHP in the FEMA incident command system, which Florida adopts as rule btw). If you did then you would have known that it clearly puts the local responding Fire/Rescue team in charge until they deem it necessary to turn the scene over to leo. The same training clearly states that, secondary to the Fire/Rescue responsibilities, it is the leo responsibilities to investigate the scene and preserve evidence "only after the incident commander has determined the scene safe." The incident commander for a crash scene (once Fire/Rescue arrives) is the highest ranking fire official.

3. You clearly don't understand FHP policy, which essentially puts you in an emergency responder mode until there is no longer any hazards at the scene and your role changes to an investigation role.


All this talk is rather silly, imo (in my opinion for all the older folks) I mean really, does it really stinking matter who is in charge at a freakin crash scene??? No your job is to respond and assist the people and to investigate the crash, not worry about stupid jurisdictionaly matters. Don't let your ego get ahead of you and get in the way of your job, it will only make you look like an @S#. The public already dislikes leo and views them as being arrogant bullies (to put it mildly). Charging firefighters will only prove that to be true. If you feel that strong about it, do like another poster said and let dispatch know, that way it will be recorded and the fire department will be the ones who have to answer for their negligence, not you.

Have a look at this video, is this what we really want FHP to look like?

when responding to an emergency call

[youtube:5j47w6p8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LC6oqLhbr0&p=75CE26B13348D2E6&playnext=1&index=27[/youtube:5j47w6p8]

Btw, the training that I have received at FHP regarding incident command clearly states that Fire/Rescue has jursidiction of a scene until they deem it safe and their services are no longer needed. Show me the statue giving a Trooper (or any Leo in Florida) the power to make a Fire fighter move their apparatus at a scene???
Really? Better read F.S.S. 316.072(5), which reads:
"(5)AUTHORIZED EMERGENCY VEHICLES.—

(a)1.The driver of an authorized emergency vehicle, when responding to an emergency call, when in the pursuit of an actual or suspected violator of the law, or when responding to a fire alarm, but not upon returning from a fire;

2.A medical staff physician or technician of a medical facility licensed by the state when responding to an emergency in the line of duty in his or her privately owned vehicle, using red lights as authorized in s. 316.2398; or

3.The driver of an authorized law enforcement vehicle, when conducting a nonemergency escort, to warn the public of an approaching motorcade;

may exercise the privileges set forth in this section, but subject to the conditions herein stated.

(b)The driver of a vehicle specified in paragraph (a), except when otherwise directed by a police officer, may:

1.Park or stand, irrespective of the provisions of this chapter;

2.Proceed past a red or stop signal or stop sign, but only after slowing down as may be necessary for safe operation;

3.Exceed the maximum speed limits so long as the driver does not endanger life or property;

4.Disregard regulations governing direction or movement or turning in specified directions, so long as the driver does not endanger life or property.

(c)The foregoing provisions shall not relieve the driver of a vehicle specified in paragraph (a) from the duty to drive with due regard for the safety of all persons, nor shall such provisions protect the driver from the consequences of his or her reckless disregard for the safety of others.

Per your request, I just "showed you."

What are you going to do exactly, pull them over? That would only harm FHP's already diminished reputation and cause you to lose your job. I could see that on the six o'clock news "FHP Trooper pulls over ambulance/fire truck enroute to an emergency" or "..while blocking traffic per the established protocol and national standards." Plus the potential liability the State would have to pay from a lawsuit. Common, get over yourself and realize that you do not have jurisdiction at every scene.

[youtube:22lttikf]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KluItc365hU&feature=related[/youtube:22lttikf]

That video is amazing. The fd was correct and the officer should be terminated. But you all totally missed the point of this whole post. When fd is done with first aid, hazardous spills and all cars are safely off the roadway, they should move out of the roadway. Read the first post and you will understand why they should have cleared..

What's the effing use? The rubberneckers are still bound to slow traffic down anyways.

What we need is a statute to shoot rubberneckers at crash / accident scenes.

That will help. :devil:

That video is amazing. The fd was correct and the officer should be terminated. But you all totally missed the point of this whole post. When fd is done with first aid, hazardous spills and all cars are safely off the roadway, they should move out of the roadway. Read the first post and you will understand why they should have cleared..

You are 100% wrong. Once the Trooper advised the defendant that he was under arrest, the defendant is required to comply. He very well could have been tased, pepper sprayed, controlled with a PR-24 or had other less lethal forced used to effect the arrest. The Trooper never would have grabbed the defendant by the throat had the defendant not resisted arrest. I hope that the Trooper filed a lawsuit against the defendant and the ambulance company.

Im sorry, that post was meant for the video of the fire truck blocking traffic at the crash scene where the officer placed the FD captain under arrest. Sorry for the mistake.




That video is amazing. The fd was correct and the officer should be terminated. But you all totally missed the point of this whole post. When fd is done with first aid, hazardous spills and all cars are safely off the roadway, they should move out of the roadway. Read the first post and you will understand why they should have cleared..

You are 100% wrong. Once the Trooper advised the defendant that he was under arrest, the defendant is required to comply. He very well could have been tased, pepper sprayed, controlled with a PR-24 or had other less lethal forced used to effect the arrest. The Trooper never would have grabbed the defendant by the throat had the defendant not resisted arrest. I hope that the Trooper filed a lawsuit against the defendant and the ambulance company.

Yeah, go ahead and use that statue, which clearly states "when responding to an emergency call..." Obviously once the scene has been established they no longer are "responding" rather they (fire rescue) are in control until they deem it okay to turn the scene over to the investigating leo.

Here are several reasons you (SO FLA Trooper) have no clue on this subject at hand:

1. If you used that statue to charge a firefighter for not moving the apparatus you would be laughed out of court all day long, because you clearly don't understand law, possibly the subject of a lawsuit.

2. You failed to properly understand your training you received at FHP in the FEMA incident command system, which Florida adopts as rule btw). If you did then you would have known that it clearly puts the local responding Fire/Rescue team in charge until they deem it necessary to turn the scene over to leo. The same training clearly states that, secondary to the Fire/Rescue responsibilities, it is the leo responsibilities to investigate the scene and preserve evidence "only after the incident commander has determined the scene safe." The incident commander for a crash scene (once Fire/Rescue arrives) is the highest ranking fire official.

3. You clearly don't understand FHP policy, which essentially puts you in an emergency responder mode until there is no longer any hazards at the scene and your role changes to an investigation role.


All this talk is rather silly, imo (in my opinion for all the older folks) I mean really, does it really stinking matter who is in charge at a freakin crash scene??? No your job is to respond and assist the people and to investigate the crash, not worry about stupid jurisdictionaly matters. Don't let your ego get ahead of you and get in the way of your job, it will only make you look like an @S#. The public already dislikes leo and views them as being arrogant bullies (to put it mildly). Charging firefighters will only prove that to be true. If you feel that strong about it, do like another poster said and let dispatch know, that way it will be recorded and the fire department will be the ones who have to answer for their negligence, not you.

Have a look at this video, is this what we really want FHP to look like?

when responding to an emergency call
And YOU must be a firefighter, because you obviously don't know how to read a statute or interpret the law. Paragraph (a) of Section 5 (which you chose to only partially quote to suit your needs, it seems) provided the partial definition of of an authorized emergency vehicle as it pertains to their authority to violate traffic laws in the performance of their duties (read the whole thing again, dummy). Paragraph (b), sub-paragraphs 1-4, says dummies like you can violate traffic laws in the performance of their duties and even spells out what those violations may consist of. The part that gets your and every other fire fighter, paremedic, and EMT's goat is the section that says "except when otherwise directed by a police officer." Don't like it? Too f*cking bad, sport! Now grow up and accept it, or find another line of work, BECAUSE IT'S THE LAW!!! I am well versed with my agency's policy manual. My duties are CLEARLY defined, and the FEMA rules you try to refer to do define the fire departments roles during emergencies on scene but DO NOT AUTHORIZE them to break an established state law!!(better check with your legal department on that one) As far as the YouTube video, do you really think I give a d*mn what YOU think I or my agency looks like? After over 24 years of being a trooper in Central and South Florida and watching fire department personnel almost and then actually CAUSE crashes due to their arrogance, I think I have a far better clue, as you put it, about the subject at hand. Look son, there is a specific reason the Legislature made it a LAW, not a RULE that emergency vehicles could violate laws except when ordered not to by the police. It ain't a power trip, it's just the way it is, and whiners like you want to bend and break the law to suit your own needs. Quit crying now, and you and the other whiners on here go console yourself on the fire fighter's forum.