Directives and application

The following information is taken directly from the directives book issued by this agency. What I would like to know is why we don't enforce these guidelines unilaterally? If it is good for one, is it not good for all? You want to make a statement? Enforce these guidelines to show that no one is exempt from proper procedure.

The first pertains to the Corporal Program
SOP # 311.02 Application for position

Applicants MUST have attained a minimum of an A.A. degree or are CURRENTLY WORKING on the attainment of an A.A. degree AS EVIDENCED by being enrolled in an accredited college and successful completion of at least two college courses per year. The course(s) must be completed with a grade of "C" or better. Once an A.A. degree is attained, no further college courses are necessary to retain Corporal status.
As you the administration must know we have at least one senior corporal who has been in his position long enough to have finished graduate school by now and still does not have an A.A. which is required per written directives and standard operating procedures.

The second pertains to Sergeant(s)

Qualifications for promotion

SOP # 1604.04

A.Sergeant

5. A MINIMUM OF AN ASSOCIATES DEGREE FROM AN ACCREDITED COMMUNITY COLLEGE OR UNIVERSITY.

Here is another instance in which we have a senior sergeant who does not have a college degree. I hope this applies to me when a test comes open. This way I don’t have to go back to school to be eligible to test.

This is the last one and my favorite. The position of professional standards.

SOP 1502.02 Selection process

AA DEGREE REQUIRED, BA PREFERRED

Now this begs the question, why does this officer need to be more qualified to recruit then a supervisor? Not to mention this is another position that is filled by an officer who does not meet the minimum requirement for the position.

Please do not respond to this post with “MANAGEMENT RIGHT”. Nowhere in the directives does it say that there is an exception to these requirements. Bottom line, if it’s good for one then it should be good for all.

Ok, what gives? Who are the underqualified Cpls and Sgts? No names, but in "LEO Affairs Terms of Use Friendly" terms. I don't know who you are talking about, but if what you say is true it needs to be dealt with. If we're supposed to be trimming the budget this sounds like a good place to start. Paying people extra money for a position or rank that they are not entitled to sounds not only unfair but wasteful. It's not hard to prove, black and white issue here. Either they have the paper or have taken the two courses per year with the documentation to go with it. *Note* courses signed up after 02/21/2009 don't count!

Ok...I am normally one of those guys that would say if you don't like it leave or mangement right etc etc....

However, on this one....I completely agree with you. Your post was well thought out and hard to argue the counter point.

Ok, who is it?

The admin is well aware of who these two very senior persons are. One is THE senior corporal and the other is a very senior sergeant (seniority wise he falls directly after the senior corporal in time on the job). Hate to see these two get jammed but at the same time LEAD BY EXAMPLE

The Directives are updated regularly so you can be sure Admin will be scrambling to update them again to address this thread. Geez, the last update required at least a two year degree to place the updated pages in the Directives manual correctly! Wow! That means several books have surely been incorrectly upgraded!

How many people knew there was a Corporal's exam at the end of last year? I spoke to one of our senior officers after the exam to ask why he didn't take it. He didn't know there was an exam. The reason he didn't know was because he was on disability. Sorry 377 gotta vent. Why wasn't he notified? It doesn't say anywhere in the Directives that you can't take the exam if you are on disability. Can you say grievance?

The bottom line is this...If you are in the click, everything will be okay. If one of the Golden Boys were on disability you know they would've been informed about the test.

I think the whole college requirement is stupid anyway. It should be disposed of becuase not eveyone has the equal opportunity to go. What has all of this education gotten us anyway?

There is no proof that college makes you a better leader, or better cop. I would argue that it makes you a worse one and locks into other people's way of thinking. Some of our smartest people and best officers have little college. It is ridiculous that some officers get more pay for doing the same exact work, and in some cases less work, all becuase they had wealthy parents, the fortune to be a minority, or the good luck to go before the money ran out.

College is not knowledge, it is a money making scam. The US Marine Corps will build your character and test you more than some liberal idiot repeating the same nonesense over and over. College education got us into this mess we are in and common sense will get us out.

Rubbish,

Your entire post read like rubbish. Not too many of our police officers come from wealthy parents. A lot of familys struggle to put their children through college. We're not talking about Harvard degrees here at PPPD! A two-year community college degree will get you into a selected position here. You get almost 30 credits for attending the police academy! That means you only need about 30 more credits to get the two-year degree.

Your statement "College is not knowledge, it is a money making scam. The US Marine Corps will build your character and test you more than some liberal idiot repeating the same nonesense over and over". I have to agree with your comment that the military can build character, but I hate to inform you the military also has a college requirement for its officers. The military even pays college tuition for all of its members. They allow satellite colleges to teach on military installations. Why is the military so pro-education? It is because they buy into your philosophy that college is a money making scam? No! It's because education plus good training equals well-rounded people.

You gonna delete this one or what? Like the GIRLS GONE WILD post, we are able to "figure out" who is being discussed here......

Show me the data that proves college makes you more "well rounded" and a better police officer.

Not everyone in the Marine Corps is an officer. You have been brain washed and told college is essential.....probably in college. Yeah, let's waste more money on a criminal justice degree....I'm working in the field and have attended an academy to learn the theory and fundamentals. I have practiced law enforcement and been certified by the state to practice law enforcement so now I go to school to learn what I already know? That's "well rounded"? Let's put that up on my wall and say "Look how smart I am". I know the three colors on a Ming Dynasty vase....the crime rate is going to drop.

Where are the bold, cutting edge crime fighting techniques being developed with all of these highly educated and "well rounded" professionals we have here? Where are the new ideas and new technology we need so desperately right now? Why are the criminals always one step ahead? Why can't any of our uber intellects even make a copy of a DVD?

If we need any college, it should be in computer science, programming, forensics, and other useful subjects, not in things we were already trained in.

It seems to me that all this education and fancy SPI schooling came up with is "write more tickets".

It's a way to keep feudalism alive. A way to say, "I deserve more money than you". Even when the same level of work and performance is being accomplished. For example our newest Officer of the Year doesn't have a four year degree (yet) and he makes less money than someone not as productive and not as "good" at their job that does? He has the honor of being the best, but not really until he becomes more "well rounded" and learns about the poetry of Lord Byron?

America has created so much self aggrandizing pseudo education and certifications that we have professionalized ourselves to the margins of world technology and production. We are going have very "well rounded" waiters and burger flippers in the near future.

I guess college helped you write that snarky post though huh?

No a college education didn't help me make my post. Your first post was anti-college. I gave your post credit for the military experience comment, but we certainly disagree on education. However, If you've been in law enforcement for any length of time then you should understand diversity. Diversity refers to more than race, creed, and color. It also refers to other differences people have such as socio-economic factors including their levels of education. We as LEOs have to treat others from diverse backgrounds the same. I respect you for your experience, but don't go bashing others because they are different (meaning college educated).

You should have a little more empathy for those officers that strive to attain higher educational goals. Instead of going home and watching tv or posting negative thoughts on this forum they attend college. Not only do they attend college, but they also juggle their home lives, families, and work. Well -rounded in experience and education. They will need the latter to compete in today's job market once they retire or leave law enforcement. They are preparing for their futures. By the tone of your post it appears you will be completely retired after law enforcement and the education thing would be a complete waste of your time.

I am sorry I was snarky back.

Let me ask: If we respect all levels of education the same, why do we pay more for those that can afford college and why can't non-college educated people be promoted?

Contrary to what you believe many do not go to college to better themselves they do it because they are forced to....that is not education and that is not the pursuit of knowledge.

If someone is already the best cop or a great cop, why make them waste money on school. Taking classes on the internet or attending clown college is not impressive and it has done nothing for the people affected by crime.

It seems that a great number of people are focused on the big retirement job, so much so that they don't focus on apply their great intellects to fighting crime which is what we are supposed to be doing...not teaching college, locked in the same paradigm, making mental copies of ideas we learned from someone else.

I guess I applaud the fact that families are ignored and victims are short changed. No data can be presented that crime rates drop or service improves with college educated officers. Actually there is a study (Beyerly 2009-NIJ) coming out that shows officer quality and agency quality suffers as education escalates.

PS: Many of the college papers here written by or assisted by the uneducated.

This is a stupid discussion. Banter, you will never win this debate. The average person, citizen, council member, business person, law enforcement officer etc... is not going to agree with you that agency administrators should not be college educated. Your position is that people charged with preparing and overseeing a 14 million dollar annual budget, managing multiple generational cultures and running a complex law enforcement operation should have no advanced college training??? The Marine Corp would beg to differ. All their officers must have a college education. You just sank your own argument. Now, if your argument was that the best might be a candidate that is both, perhaps I could agree with you and others likely would as well but your argument on its own is stupid and frankly, in my opinion, shows your lazy.

WE don't pay more money to those that are college educated. The State of Florida provides incentive funding to officers who obtain advanced degrees. The extra money does not come from the state. You are just as capable as the rest of us college educated folks at getting an education. I would guess that you would serve your family more if you concentrated on getting a college degree rather than coming on here trying to convince the entire police profession that college degrees are useless. You sir, likely are going to be very lonely on that branch.

Actually, since you keep bringing it up, the Marines do require college education for officers. Officers only, not all actually. There are senior enlisted without college. But the college doesn't teach them to fly a plane, lead a platoon, kill the enemy....that is training, vocational and specialized, not poetry.


The City Manager has no college .....his budget is big. Not all the Council has college...they are in charge of a budget. Same with Warren Buffet and Bill Gates. So there goes that argument.

Not going to college means you are lazy? I am not lazy. The few minutes I took to post on here this year so far has not teken up all the time I could have used for "college".

You presented no facts or data to refute me. You really didn't undue any of my arguments, nor will I suspect you will. You are right many have been brainwashed into thinking college is needed for this job. I don't know how they got through doing it for hundreds of years without it. I don't know how college makes you a good fighter, talker, investigator, shooter, driver etc....but hey that's the paradigm.....that's just the way I was taught and that's the way we always did it.

Again, computer, mechanical and language skills are more useful than learning what we were already taught in an academy. That is a redundant waste.

I have to say in my experience and opinion, the smartest guys working here don't have college (or just some). It is not a measure of laziness, diversity or intelligence.

What online school did you go to?

Ahh...Nice try. I didn't go online to school but thanks for asking. However, even if I did, I could still get promoted, you couldn't apparently. I call you lazy because you would rather come on here and argue your stupid point rather than do the work and get the degree. The reality, when you were hired, the requirement was there, just get the degree and then show us how smart you are on the next promotional exam.

If I really cared that much for this topic, I would fire up the google and find several of the millions of reason one should try and get a college degree. Forget about the critical thinking and advanced writing that you receive in college that they don't give you in the academy. I will admit, you can be a great street cop without a degree. I will also grant you that you are right, a select few were born with natural leadership ability and common sense to be able to be the Chief of Police without a degree. If that was the case, college would never have been invented. The reality is, any education improves you. I want leaders who care enough about themselves and the profession to take the time to improve themselves. Not thinking up BS reasons for why they shouldn't have to and feeling sorry for themselves that they are being held back for their lack of ambition.

Here's two of many studies on the topic college vs non-college police officers. Research suggests college does help with an officer's overall performance.

Aamodt, Michael G. Research in Law Enforcement Selection. Boca Raton, Florida: Brown Walker Press, 2004. Summarizes 330 studies investigating the validity of methods used to select law enforcement personnel. Concludes that officers with a college education perform better in the academy, receive higher performance ratings on the job, have fewer disciplinary problems, have less absenteeism, and use force less often than their peers without a college education.

Selected Annotated Bibliography on Performance of Officers with Bachelor’s Degrees
reprinted from "College Education and Policing" By Louis Mayo, Ph.D., Executive Director, Police Association for College Education, in the August 2006 edition of Police Chief magazine.

Excellent, you brought some references to the table. Let us debate the merits.

Aamodt is an industrial hygenist and there is a reason his book is already out of print. Dantker's study (2005 UoOk) rips apart Aamodt's conclusions. The flaw with Aamodt's work is that he did not take into account vocational education, military education, college earned post employment, beginning socio economic factors and most of the agencies and studies surveyed were prior to 1980. Aamodt was looking to show that a more "liberal minded" officer is a better employee. Dantker (and the Verrill Study-20007) show that vocationally trained officers do use force more and have twice the street encounters with suspects. Dantker takes the higher sick time rate and breaks it down: It's higher because vocationally trained officers are more likely to be engaged in high risk units and to face a suspect.

Since you are citing Aamodt, he also shows women and minorities are worse performers all around.

The second study you cite, I have read the article and see most of the was data taken from a ten year study of a few major metro departments in the early 70's? Life on Mars?

Pre-Serpico, maybe it was helpful to "liberalize" the police....both studies tout that college education produces a "less conservative" officer as a plus. Neither study shows how agencies with college requirements differ in productivity, effectiveness or how it affects the crime rate. Does a liberal fireman put more water on a fire?

Most I have talked to said their college time was a waste and they were just doing it to get the degree, the paper. In one unit, I saw four people doing school work at their desks and three "uneducated" employees working their tails off. There are knowledge seekers that prefer to learn on their own. It's not a lazy thing, it's a seeking true knowledge thing.

You know what? It was fun debating you, even though there were some personal snipping on both sides(though not too shabby for this board). Obviously, I have some college or a two year degree in order to work here. I fear we diluted the original intent of this post. My point is that college should not be a requirement for sergeant, just a factor to consider and certainly college is not required for professional standards or corporal. Apparently my opinion is how it is in practice if not on paper. And finally, the boss of our boss has no college....maybe you are right after all....

The bottom line is that this is a challenge to our administration to right two wrongs. I am also calling out C3 to respond. He has responded in the past and now remains mum? Some will say this is not the forum but due to the sad political climate within the agency this is the only way. What are you going to do, if anything? You want to boost moral? take action. These are two great men being called to the carpet for this but RULES are RULES. They failed to meet the requirements that the position required and should be transferred. They should not be allowed to do it now only because they got caught or that it caught up to them. Other sergeant's who were promoted under similar circumstances fulfilled their college education requirement, the one in question did not. Same goes for the corporal.

A little birdie told me to check out this post!

This message is to the earlier poster "Here We Go Again"

Thanks for your concern. Your post is accurate. I didn't know about the test until someone called me and told me about it after the fact (No names mentioned so Mod 1 doesn't chime in!) Was I able to drive over and take the test? I was able to drive to physical therapy and lift weights so the answer is certainly I could've tested! Would I have taken the test? Hard to say...It would depend on how much time I had to study before the test. I like to prepare.

The Directives only say the exam process will be posted. It would've been impossible for me to read a promotional exam posting when I wasn't physically there at the PD to see it! Nowhere do the Directives say an officer on disability can't take a promotional exam. Maybe C4 can clarify that for a future Directives update.

In reality, I was more concerned with getting my health back in order so I could spend more quality time with my family. I also wanted my health back to a level commensurate with full duty. With budget cuts being implemented everywhere I don't think my being oblivious to the posted exam will matter in the long run.

Nice banter on the education thread.....I'll stay out of it though....I have a paper to write!

Scott 377

I am enjoying these posts and I too am taking classes, so I try to balance my family life, work, etc. I wonder how much of this schooling and degree seeking is being done at work?

no more than L2, S1, or 361 did while obtaining their masters

I wonder how much time is spent discussing fantasy football?

How about the people who think school is a waste of time go directly to 346, 377, 379, 396, 446, and 428 and tell them to their faces that they are wasting their time. All of whom are currently pursuing their degrees.

I didnt think so.

College and education are both good sources of knowledge generators. I would say if your training (military/vocational) or college is older than a few years, you've got some problems. Training and knowledge falls behind after a few years. I know people that are 20 plus years in the future from their military training. How does that affect a potential promotional appointment? How does that training pale in comparison to today's military training? How about someone that hasn't had any substantial schooling in 20 plus years?

Training and education are only as good as the time in history it was taken in. Anything else and you fall behind today's technological and knowledge advancements. Best bet is to continue training and or education throughout your life. Since you can't continue your military training when you get out (unless reserve status), try to find some new training or other school to get into so you can stay abreast of current technological and knowledge advancements.

Some people take in-service training classes, others take college courses. We've all taken those Florida in-service training classes. Those are a joke, yet someone with enough salary incentive classes can make the same as an officer with a college education. Who's making the same amount of money for less work? In-service classes vs college courses. Another debatable issue.

Many of those whom you have rattled off do think school is stupid. They are only doing it because they have to. No real seekers of knowledge there. That's the whole point of school though right? Soon all degrees will be rendered meaningless because everyone will have one. You will need a state certification to work the french fry station at McDonalds.

The good news is Obama wants "Universal Education" for all Americans, no one has to pay! If everyone has a degree, how will we feel smart and self important? Where are society's doers? Everyone sits around learning about things instead of doing things. Let's learn about police work from some guy who "observed" law enforcement and wrote a book. It's no wonder law enforcement is pretty ineffective these days.

I guess we are a better agency than PCSO and HCSO because we require a two year degree. When my pipes bust at home, I want the experienced and skilled plumber, not the plumber who read books and wrote papers about it.

Sorry Sarge, I guess you have to step down from line supervision until you learn more about 19th century Latin American politics. Ma'am, don't worry I'll catch the bugger that murdered your son......I have a Masters Degree in Public Administration.

Yeah, your right we should all go to school on duty too. Let's all work on our Masters on duty, maybe those that already got them can take calls for us for a while...since we carried them (I do recall those days of watching that go down----they were making more money than us doing no actual work).? The bad news is when I retire there is going to be 45,000 guys trying to teach Criminal Justice at junior college.

I just can't get over why the crime rate is going up, or at the very least not going down. With such a dense concentration of educated law enforcement professionals in one jurisdiction, I am amazed at the lack of innovation, the inability to utilize resources and the inability to adapt and foresee the new challenges we face. For example, why do we deploy in reactive random patterns when this has clearly been discredited by the Kansas City Study? With such a genius laden organization I expect new things and new ideas, however, what we get is write lots of tickets and "that's the way we always did it", and my favorite, "Someone else takes care of that"......

I say our officers need focus on things like "driving without crashing" "learning to talk to the public" "getting confessions" "solving crimes" "getting along with co workers" "not getting maimed or killed" "recognizing crimes and criminals" "observation skills" and "basic Florida laws", before they go out and learn how to run and manage a police agency. That is a real problem in our agency. Yes, I am impressed that you are working on your Masters in International Relations, but maybe just take a little time out of your "balancing" and "very busy school day" to focus on what people are counting on you (and paying you) to do. Let's worry about that post retirement gig after maybe our first five years of service.

How about we learn by doing?

Duh,

Good points! PPPD had several old school officers that had military experience, no college, yet maxed out on the $130 per month because they had enough salary incentive classes. Those classes are a joke, but they hold more weight than a 4 year degree. Two salary incentive classes equals $20 extra per month. A 4 year degree is worth $80 extra per month. Think about it folks, 8 salary incentive courses equals a 4 year degree in law enforcement. That is insane.

Leave the 2 year college requirement there for supervisors. If a candidate also has military experience give them an extra 5 points like they do for civil service and government jobs. If they have above and beyond the 2 year college requirement, give them an extra 5 points too. That makes everyone equal. If you don't like the supervisor college requirement...go back to school....or get another occupation that will promote without college.

Or become the City Manager instead............shazaam!

Really though, just being a good cop beats both.

I am sorry but being a good street cop does not automatically gurantee being a good supervisor.

It should be a requirement but there are a number of good street cops that would make terrible supervisors.

Also, our agency does not require a two year degree. It is preferred, but there are many officers who have been hired with much less than a degree.

How many years of patrol/experience do you think it takes to become a good street cop? Two, three, four, five, or more? Think about our current supervisory personnel for a moment. How many have less than 5 years, 3 years, or 2 years patrol experience beore they were promoted or shuffled off to a specialized position? These are the same supervisors that give orders, direct, and discipline officers concerning proper patrol procedures.

There are lots of veteran patrol officers with more patrol experience than the supervisors. Some would make fantastic supervisors, others would not. Sadly, the good ones will never get a chance to supervise because of budget cuts and others being entrenched in their supervisory roles for years to come.

I agree with the previous posters that seem to gravitate towards an equal balance of patrol experience and education being the ideal candidate for a supervisory position. Nothing wrong with getting some book smarts about administration procedures. At least that way the under-experienced supervisor-elects get a chance to learn something about law enforcement while they are leading the backbone of the pd....the patrol officers. Day in and day out they get the job done. Most of them without supervision.

Duh,

Good points! PPPD had several old school officers that had military experience, no college, yet maxed out on the $130 per month because they had enough salary incentive classes. Those classes are a joke, but they hold more weight than a 4 year degree. Two salary incentive classes equals $20 extra per month. A 4 year degree is worth $80 extra per month. Think about it folks, 8 salary incentive courses equals a 4 year degree in law enforcement. That is insane.

Leave the 2 year college requirement there for supervisors. If a candidate also has military experience give them an extra 5 points like they do for civil service and government jobs. If they have above and beyond the 2 year college requirement, give them an extra 5 points too. That makes everyone equal. If you don't like the supervisor college requirement...go back to school....or get another occupation that will promote without college.

That does not make everyone equal by giving those who went to school an extra five points. ALL of us had and have had the same opportunities. Some chose to take advantage and others got lazy. I for one have a college degree and I am glad I do. I do not push college on anyone, some just don't want to do it. But don't allow that same person who lacks the ambition to be ranked even to me when it come times for promotional consideration. Take a class or two at a time and before you know it SHAZAM, degree. On a side note don't blame the PD, blame to colleges. That want you to take some B.S. ALMEA studies courses to graduate. I know I speak for many when I say that it's a money making venture. I don't care about 19th century lit. any more than the next guy. Oh well, the rich get richer.

Quit calling everyone who doesn't go to school lazy. One who went through Parris Island and served in the Corps....or some other service might consider a "civilian police officer" lazy or even "chicken"

The attackers in this forum should receive honorary Ph.D's in "burnt out relations" with a minor in "bitterness & disenchantment".

Some of you are "masters" in the art of sabotage and manipulating these posts to make it look like your co-workers are posting here when they are not, so you can create an atmosphere of suspicion. This is a classic act of jealously, google or Wiki that, its a fact.

Lets be brutally frank here. Those who have come on here and blasted the college students are compensating for their own lack of character and morals. It is also truth that their continual complaining and hatred have resulted in their own personal career failures. Ficticious or Fruition?. We all have made mistakes, I personally have taken responsibility and not taken it on you. Why do you take it out on the rest of us who have a degree.

What I want you to do is the next time you fill out your time sheet, calculate how many hours you wasted thinking about "other" people, conspiring to start rumors, and letting others successes' get to you; the time lost will shock you. You have obviously been deceived into thinking that you will have some kind of effect on anyone else's career especially after you have already damaged your own. What is your motto? "I'm a has been so I want him/her to be too"?.

I am disappointed to know that there are those among us who cannot be trusted. If you would say such things about your coworkers, what kind of work ethic do YOU have? "I would like to solve this case for you ma'am, but I am too busy being mad at my coworkers guy for getting/or not getting their degree". I would like to handle your signal 4 sir, but I am just too despondent that my coworker over here is trying to make something of themselves."

Dear negative attackers, Just because you are sad dont blame the other 90% of us.

Whose sad? You should add up the time spent making no valid arguments. I you have been the one posting back and forth as the "stalwart defender of mystical knowledge" you should realize that at every turn you got it handed to you. You refutrd nothing, made no real valid arguments for your stance. .......you might want to get a refund on that learnin'

I don't see your point at all about trust. Are you saying the non-collegiate is untrustworthy?

Let us look at the progression of this post. Some people were called out as not being qualified for the positions they hold. A counter point was made questioning the entire criterea for promotion (again, we are the exception). Your sense of self importance demanded that this insult not go unchallenged and you responded with a touch of snark. A logical retort was made, parrying your thrust.

Now disarmed, you desperately reverted to the tried and true tools that helped you through the intellectual slaughterhouse that was University of Phoenix Online/SPC/St. Leo/FMU........you Googled something. Yes, hidden up your sleeve you pulled out the first two relevent Google results that supported your argument.

Things indeed looked dark for our hero, however, what the college educated villain knew not was that somehow this seemingly simple person actually can learn and read on his own! Yes, this fool actually has read the research and data and may have dabled in it himself....to what end we may never know.....perhaps learning for learning's sake?....great scott!...the fiend's arguments were soon shot down one by one, like Japanese Zeroes over the Marianas. (That thar wuz a similee Uncle Lucky, cuz I uzed the ward "like").

Beaten, the enemy was reduced to childish name calling and soon his already weak mind devolved to the point where he was merely uttering nonsensical gibberish. His last wild flailings utterly ineffective. How could this lazy, backwoods rube best me? I paid money for education, I'm a knowledge consumer! When I say things like, "you don't need to be a good street cop to be a good supervisor", that should win the day.

The educated, mental demi-god died that day never knowing the truth of the matter.....some people are born with natural intelligence and others must purchase it or fake it.

You clearly have nothing left and your last several points were beyond moronic. I believe the Explorers have gotten on here again. In either case, you now bore me.

Good Day Sir!

Re, Who is supposed to understand this last post? Your World of Warcraft buddies? How about translating it for the rest of us.

Again, this last pile of purposely over the top examples was simply overcompensation for having a nerve struck. Did you identify with yourself in the anonymous post?. Sorry, the truth can be a bee-yotch. Ask around.

Those sixty community college credits have served you well my sad friend

This court is adjourned!

Pugs, give it a rest already. We know you are a little pissed, and rightfully so, being chucked downstairs with the rest of us. Nothing is ever going to change and it aint gonna get any better. You should have your 10 in by now, so do like any smart person would do and take it X8. You are going to give yourself an aneurysm or something.

How about the people who think school is a waste of time go directly to 346, 377, 379, 396, 446, and 428 and tell them to their faces that they are wasting their time. All of whom are currently pursuing their degrees.

I didnt think so.

No, it's not. I'm sure they wish they could work on it while on duty

Echo (and several other names you used on this thread),

Your first sentence reads like a liberal/socialist politician that wants to force feed his agenda by belittling his rivals. The first sentence you wrote in response to sited scholarly research sums up your character "Aamodt is an industrial hygenist and there is a reason his book is already out of print." Aamodt is actually an industrial psychologist not a hygenist. He holds a PhD. Talk about twisting facts to fit your agenda. The rest of your post also reads like swiss cheese ...full of holes. No sense going any further because you'll come back with another idiotic post. We'll know your future posts. Your argument is not cited by any peer-reviewed research. The one citing you gave (Dantker) to bolster your opinion is useless. It can't be found unless you meant Danker and Virrell the marine biologists from the late 1800's! "It is better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt." Thanks for playing...fool!

I believe Echo was referring to Michael L. Dantzker. Yeah he mispelled it. Dantzker was actually measuring job satisfaction rates between college educated and non-colleged educated officers. His conclusion was college educated officers became less interested in their jobs as time of service increased. He wrote his book "Understanding Today's Police" around 1992. Well outdated research.

He predicted more officers would need college for promotions and administration positions in the future. He was not anti-college like Echo suggests. Echo just pulled a sentence or two out of his research to fit his agenda. Dr. Dantzker actually teaches Criminal Justice courses at the University of Texas at Pan American. Echo should forward his comments to Dr. Dantzker and tell him he is part of the evil money making machine and college is a waste of time!

If the research is outdated, what new research have you found that supercedes this? Why were even earlier studies than this cited as proof of your argument?

You stated that Echo only pulled a sentence or two out of that book. Did you read the book? What were his full conclusions then? I don't recall it being stated or suggested that Dantzker was anti-college.

I don't see why someone's character is questionable if they have a different opinion. I don't see how getting a person's occupational title incorrect is a reflection on their character. Again, two respected supervisors were being called out as unqualified. An opinion was made regarding the selection process as a whole and then attacks began.

The truth is you (the one guy) is upset because there are some guys in his same job field that can do just as good a job as he does (probably better) with just vocational training and talent. Until you are planning budgets and writing policies, this is somewhat of a blue collar job. I am so sorry if this wounds your ego and sense of self importance.

Honestly, this is moronic. You are getting more hostile each time you post. You are a terrible debater and you are projecting that others must be unhappy. I am very happy. Most people here are. This is a fun job, but it shouldn't be your life. Maybe you should have went to school for something else so wouldn't have to think about law enforcement so much.

I don't think anyone questioned the wisdom of education in general, just going to college for something you are already fully licensed, trained and certified to do. My guess is that you are some Spanish Moss graduate that won't make it to five. If you think executive level education before mastering the job basics first is a good practice....well then keep on trucking.

I think the bottom line question for you based on your posts here (just you), do you think and are you saying that the college graduates at our agency are better officers than the vocational or non graduated officers?

Anti-Echo,

You pointed out that the PhD's name was mispelled, however, you should perhaps proofread your own post and take note of your spelling errors. There is a proverb regarding sin and throwing stones you should look into.

So do you need a college degree to just be a "regular o'le" patrol officer or do they just say you need it incase of promotional opportunities?