PDA

View Full Version : Experts say firing at a moving vehicle rarely best course



08-09-2008, 03:26 AM
http://www.palmbeachpost.com/localnews/ ... _0809.html (http://www.palmbeachpost.com/localnews/content/local_news/epaper/2008/08/08/m1a_shootcars_0809.html)


Experts say firing at a moving vehicle rarely best course


By RHONDA SWAN

Palm Beach Post Staff Writer

Friday, August 08, 2008

Another teenage driver is dead.

Another officer's action investigated.

And once again the question arises: When is it appropriate to shoot at a moving vehicle?

The answer for many experts is rarely.

On Aug. 2, Palm Beach County sheriff's deputy Eric Bethel shot 16-year-old Ruben Charles DeBrosse in the back of the head as the unlicensed teen backed a stolen car toward the deputy. A sheriff's spokesman said the deputy feared for his life.

DeBrosse's mother plans to bury him today.

The circumstances are at least partially similar to those three years ago when former Delray Beach police officer Darren Cogoni shot Jerrod Miller in the back of the head as the unlicensed teen drove a borrowed car down a breezeway at a high school dance.

It was one of several high-profile fatal police shootings across the country that year, prompting departments to reevaluate their policies on using lethal force against moving vehicles.

The Palm Beach County Sheriff's Office tightened its policy, making it more difficult for deputies to justifiably fire at a fleeing car - even one coming toward them - unless it is the absolute last resort.

Sheriff Ric Bradshaw says that was the case in the DeBrosse shooting and he is comfortable with the policy.

"It addresses the issues, and it doesn't allow indiscriminate shooting into a moving vehicle," Bradshaw said.

He declined to elaborate further, citing the state attorney office's investigation into the shooting.

Though experts say shooting at or into a moving vehicle is rarely a good idea, at least two agree that given the circumstances, Bethel acted appropriately.

Bethel was running backward and fell as DeBrosse was backing his stolen car into the deputy, sheriff's office spokeswoman Teri Barbera said. Fearing for his life, he fired four shots. Two hit DeBrosse. Two hit the car.

However, the sheriff's office policy on firing into vehicles, which is similar to that of many departments across the country, appears to contradict itself, says Thomas Aveni, a New Hampshire police officer and member of the Police Policy Study Council. The council does research, training and consulting with an emphasis on the use of deadly force.

The sheriff's office prohibits deputies from shooting at a moving vehicle unless an occupant is using or threatening to use deadly force by means other than the vehicle, for example a gun.

However, it also permits shooting at a moving vehicle if the vehicle is being used as a weapon to hit a deputy or a citizen and all other means of defense, such as running away, have been exhausted.

"I'm surprised they have it worded that way," Aveni said. "You've got on the one hand them saying you can't use deadly force against somebody using a vehicle as a weapon ... then on the other hand, they're saying if the guy's using it as weapon and attempting to strike the officer then he can use deadly force. That's a pretty transparent, pretty manifest contradiction."

Aveni suggested the policy might not hold up in court in the event of a lawsuit.

Among the reasons Aveni and others cite for not using firearms to stop a moving vehicle is that it's difficult to hit a moving target, particularly when officers are likely to also be moving fast to avoid being hit.

Also, handgun bullets are not likely to stop a car, and hitting the driver could incapacitate or kill him, making the vehicle an unguided missile that could hurt bystanders.

"You're not really protecting yourself except in the oddest of circumstances," said Geoffrey Alpert, a professor of criminology at the University of South Carolina, who specializes in high-risk police activity. "For example if you're backed up against the wall and you have nowhere to go and someone is driving at you, or if you slip and fall."

Alpert says research shows that most suspects are trying to escape, not run officers down. "Even still, your time is better spent getting the hell out of the way than trying to fire a weapon," he said.

Aveni says there are times other than when an officer is trapped or on the ground, when firing into a vehicle is appropriate.

He pointed to a case in Nevada when a suspect was purposely hitting pedestrians outside a casino with a car, and another in Chicago where an officer reached into a car to grab the keys not knowing the suspect still had the car in drive. The suspect accelerated with the officer hanging from his car, dragging him down a busy city street. The officer shot and killed the driver, was thrown from the car and survived.

Aveni says many police departments have created deadly-force policies that are too restrictive in response to controversial, high profile police vehicle shootings.

He added that more police training is needed and suggested departments use a flexible policy such as: "Officers should not use deadly force against moving vehicles unless other alternatives have been exhausted or were not available and where human life is in imminent danger."

08-10-2008, 03:51 PM
I D really like to see what ms swan would do if a 2500 lb veh was coming at her ,if she had a weapon would she use it lose it or die. In the case of both officers it would have been veeeeeery interseting if they both just let the vehicles go to stike and possibly hurt or killl someone else, it would be a case of damed if you do or damed if you don t. we ll never know but I can assure you if Im looking down the barrel I mean a bumper with no time to spare , the driver s going 7...

08-22-2008, 08:45 PM
What do the experts say is the best option?


"SIR, STEP TOWARD MY GUN....CLOSER, CLOSER, ALMOST THERE......BAM!"

08-29-2008, 07:08 AM
The truth is shooting into a moving vehicle is ALMOST never a good idea. Unless they are firing at you, DON'T SHOOT AT A MOVING CAR! In reality, it's not a good shoot. Look at D/S Tognacci in district 1. He was in the palmbeach post the other day, and he had a car intentionally try to hit him. Instead of shooting at the car, which would have accomplished NOTHING, he dove out of the way, and resumed the chase. This is the same deputy that is a decorated Iraq war veteran, and the same deputy that killed one of the bank robbers by shooting him several times in his chest from close-range. He made a good decision, IMO, these deputies did not.

08-31-2008, 07:01 PM
and that is exactly what it is, your "imo". and we know the saying that goes with opinions. you probably have never been involved an any type of incident like these. and if you have, glad it worked out for you and your quick life threatening decision.

08-31-2008, 09:52 PM
I agree that if you are able to move out of the way of a car that is coming at you that isyour best course of action. However, to say that it is never a good idea to shoot at a moving vehicle is ignorant. If you say that you have never pulled the trigger or never been in that situation. One can presume that anyone who tries to run over a deputy is an ongoing threat to the public. There are few guns, and no handguns, that will make a car stop. But shutting off the driver under the right circumstances can be the right thing to do. Too many training staff who have too much time on their hands beat this one up too much. And I would rather face an opponent with a gun than one with a large car that hit me a whole lot easier. My experience is this, most supposed "experts" have never done anything related to what they claim to be an expert in. And those that cannot do, teach. :P

09-01-2008, 05:53 AM
Hey "West Coaster" you make a bunch of good points, but nobody in any of these posts said it is NEVER a good idea to shoot at a moving car. They said it is RARELY a good idea. Its just the exception rather than the rule thats all.

Too much is being made of all this shootin on the move shitzell. Who cares if SA office doesnt think it was a "GOOD IDEA." You know what, you do what you gotta do to go home safely at the end of your shift. If you have to shoot at a dude moving in a car, then I guess it wasn't a "GOOD IDEA" for them to put you in a life or death situation. Thats the way it goes.

We are not expected to make "perfect" decisions in a split second. Our decisions and actions just have to be "reasonable."

09-05-2008, 11:06 AM
Who cares if SA office doesnt think it was a "GOOD IDEA."


Uh, I care. I'm not going to jail for 7 years, because I wanted to incapacitate a driver that MAY hit other citizens.