Tickets to our own

How about the new policy about writing tickets to our own? I thought getting punished by the department and having our take home taken away was enough.

I suppose if we are going to cite firemen and other city workers, then this was the next logical step. Other agencies have been doing it for years.

There's case law that says getting a ticket and then getting punished administratively is double jeopardy. So, if you're gonna get slammed administratively, just pay the ticket, then they can't touch you.

Do you happen to know what that case law is?

This issue was brought to the attention of the FOP and is being looked at. This decision was made by the CM after it was raised by John Moore and Lisa Hendrikson. The Chief called the decision "distasteful" in the most recent staff meeting.

My advice to you all while all this is being hashed out is this:

1. Don't crash.

2. Don't go x18 to anything (maybe officer down, that's it), don't violate any traffic control devices, lights and sirens or not, go 10 miles under the speed limit at all times, close the MDC lid and do not operate while driving-go "voice only" if you have to.

3. Don't pull out into traffic or drive fast to catch up to traffic violators, call it out then shut it down if it requires you to go over the speed limit. You will still get credit for trying and the City will see a loss of revenue...but hey you tried.

4. Develop risk management for yourself. the City wants you to risk your safety for the greater good, which is what we all are happy to do, but they will not support or share in such a risk. In fact this policy may leave you open to lawsuits. So why drive fast to anything? If it takes 25 minutes to get to a bank robbery, not our problem, not our money, let the city deal with it. Policy says when you can go x18 it doesn't say you must. I would also be hesitent to foot chase as well. If the guy runs who cares right? Paperwork, Ot details, hundreds of petty rules that's what is important! Don't get hurt they will abandon you.

5. Since fairness and risk mitigation is so important I think every officer should point out workplace safety violations when ver they see them, for example, I see no Material Safety Data Sheets posted in the building for all the chemicals we have at the PD, No eyewash station either. The cleaning crew does not use a wet floor sign when they mop.....payday! The ICV camera is very large and could cause a loss of visibility, they make smaller cameras with better placement, why hasn't the City gotten the safest camera?


6. Find out if CM, JM and LH are practicing what they preach behind the wheel.

7. Finally if you get into a crash ask for your FOP rep. Fight the ticket in court and demand your FOP attorney represent you. You should also ask the City for an attorney if it occurred on duty. Take it to court every time. Policy and reality force us to multitask behind the wheel, I saw that argument prevail once before.

8. If you are ordered to write another officer, tell the traffic judge you don't agree and were forced to write the ticket.

9. Always maintain proper following distance as established in the Florida driver's handbook, you read a tag until both cars have stopped, and tag running will be reduced, but so will risk.

Florida is a no fault state, no law says anyone must be cited. Why is it okay to pull over an off duty officer going 80 in a 55 and let him go? This policy is hypocritical and is meant to appease big business. We were forced to write civilians citations in crashes because of insurance companies. No law says we have to, we did it on a recommendation by DHSMV after it's head was lobbied with insurance cash.

This policy is not what the majority of police agencies are doing contrary to propaganda. I checked with each and discovered it is only mandatory in one and optional in one other....all the rest don't.

Just another liberal indignity thrust upon those who are forbidden to fight back!

Very well said. I think this policy is unfair. We get disciplined and get a ticket to? How is that fair?

To the earlier poster who said its natural progression to write tickets to our own, I want to ask that if that is true, then we should be writing tickets to all law enforcement, fire department, city workers and yes, city commissions when we stop them for traffic violations. Hey, its only natural progression, right?

yeah right, Butler complained to everyone that would listen when 279 stopped him for being a suspected sig 1. Imagine how much complaining he would have done had 279 given him a ticket.

Butler is ally to our PD and one of the biggest supporters of our officers on City Council. Don't bite the hand that feeds you. If you want to find out what happened, talk to McNeil. I have little doubt that if McNeil had PC, Butler would have gone to jail.

As for the natural progression. We were talking car crash citations here not run of the mill traffic infractions. We have been citing off duty officers, family, employees....etc.. on crashes for years. We were the only ones left out of the progression....We weren't talking about your regular officer discretion citations.

That is a complete distortion of fact, most agencies in this county and neighboring counties do not cite officers even in crashes. One gives officer's descretion and one does write them, but will ask an outside unit to investigate them first.

I spoke with a representative in each agency personally, in fact in one of the agenies (a big one), it is written policy that an officer shall not be cited in addition to internal proceedings. This info is being passed to the union. Please stop spreading bad information and do the research yourself.

Again, I find it dubious that we allow officers, family, doctors, dispatchers, ASA's etc. to get away with reckless speeding without so much as a warning and yet we can't let an officer (or civilianfor that matter) go unpunished three times (traffic fine, discipline, insurance hike) for a fender bender.

Don't be angry with Admin this isn't their doing, it is just the latest debasement of the police by the CM, a man known for his resentment of the police department. Every one who hasn't bankrupted several businesses please step forward......not so fast cartoon tie.

Be safe everyone, don't risk yourself for anyone in this City, just your brothers and family.

If you are not going to do your job and respond to the emergencies in this city at the speed that is appropriate because of this policy, then resign now for you do not deserve the badge.

You don't cherry pick which calls you are going to quickly respond to. The urgency is dictated by the people in need, not who they are.

You are a disgrace.

Please post for us who you spoke to at each agency and outline the agencies and what their policies are. I doubt you will be able to do it. Don't cite confidentiality or any other such excuse. It is a public record and is not embarassing information. A policy is a policy.

The proper speed for all calls regardless of type is the speed limit, below in bad weather, using the two second rule spacing when following a vehicle
, doubled in bad weather, MDC lid down as per policy.

Taking into account the response policy, pursuit policy and this new "treat cops like park mowers" policy, only a fool would ever go X18. I have a wife and kids to pay for and I'm not risking my job or health for anyone.

Yes, yes I'm a disgrace, I should go somewhere else.......Get good evals though, no discipline, pretty happy about most things.....well there must be some reason I have an opinion that differs from the Toadie that posted above.

The poster told you the FOP is handling it....ask them maybe? Do the research yourself?

You keep driving fast all over the place and see what happens when you hit someone and get sued?

One last thing....can we write moving violations to other cruisers for speeding and stuff if they are not x18? I know some easy stats I can get...

Toadie away, you little Igors.


Using the Two-Second Rule

At any speed, you can use the two-second rule to see if you are far enough behind the car in front of you:
Watch the vehicle ahead pass some fixed point - an overpass, sign, fence corner, or other marker.
Count off the seconds it takes you to reach the same spot in the road ("one thousand and one, one thousand and two...").
If you reach the mark before you finish counting, you are following too closely. Slow down and check your following distance again.
The two-second rule applies to any speed in good weather and road conditions. If road or weather conditions are not good, double your following distance. You should also double your following distance when driving a motor home or towing a trailer.

What drugs are you on?

First off, thanks for the teenage driving school lesson on the two second rule. Other than that, I am not sure what you meant in the rest of your post, you sound like a raving lunatic.

Don't come on here and bash our hard working brothers and sisters in the parks department. What did they ever do to you. Get off your high and mightly thrown, we are no better than they are. Our job is different and at times more dangerous but they work hard and don't deserve to be bashed on here by your holy than thou attitude.

As for the proper speed to respond to calls. It is the speed limit unless you are operating in an emergency status. Then state laws authorizes us to exceed the posted limit and legally violate traffic control devices while running lights or siren and operating in a safe manner. In other words do it safely and don't cause a crash. Once again, that is what the public expects and that is what we should expect of our co-workers. There are times when x18 is the right thing to do so shut up and do it. If you are too frightened to run x18 because of your family and losing your job... Find a different career. Even after your second post, you are less qualified to work here than you were yesterday. Oh by the way, If feel so much better you have no discipline. Neither do I. Whoopeee..... That means nothing...........................

For our next driving lesson, could you please explain in great detail the mechanics of who gets to go first at a four way stop when both vehicles arrive at the same time. That one always gets me.

It's "throne", "holier than thou" and "lights and sirens". The whole issue is soon to be moot from what I am hearing.

To the person I was bantering with: you are clearly a simpleton and I shall waste no more of my valuable time swatting at mental gnats.

Good day sir.....

Thank you for the corrections...It is always great when us simpletons can be corrected for our spelling by the almighty know it all.

Thank you for not posting anymore, it will save the rest of us from the frustration of your rants.

I am a little disppointed though, I so was wanting to hear your expert interpretation or shall I say explanation for the four way stop sign dilema. Did I spell that right? I am sure you will let me know if I didn't.

Thanks

Puny Simpleton

Sorry, but I had to correct you..

It is lights or siren....

This is from the statutes. Look it up yourself...316.126(3)

(3) Any authorized emergency vehicle, when en route to meet an existing emergency, shall warn all other vehicular traffic along the emergency route by an audible signal, siren, exhaust whistle, or other adequate device or by a visible signal by the use of displayed blue or red lights. While en route to such emergency, the emergency vehicle shall otherwise proceed in a manner consistent with the laws regulating vehicular traffic upon the highways of this state.

I am sure you knew that though and this was only a test. I guess since you won't be posting anymore, we won't get your whitty response.

Thanks again for all the great lessons...

think about it. Why drive fast, when the city will bang you for it? unless an officer is in trouble, please drive the limit. see what happens when a city council persons in trouble or when a creditor is banging down the CM's door. All you rookies can haul as$ where ever you want, but ask some vets where that will get you.

Since you said to ask me, I will tell you. Do your job.

If that means driving above the speed limit, do it. If you are too afraid of crashing and getting a ticket.......cry me a river and then get a new job. However, you better get one where you don't drive. Odds are no matter where you work, if you crash and your at fault.... You pretty much get a ticket.....

Next topic....

Simple question. What does the S.O.P. say about running lights and siren. What has the city found acceptable for responding to a priority call. Hey angry rookie. Look up the s.o.p. and you wont have to speak in relative terms. If you were a senior officer you would already know the answer. I left several years ago and still know the answer to proper speed for priority call dumb ass.

[JAJG]

No wonder your SGTs write Jail Guards speeding ticket for 15 over the limit. You guys eat your own. Nice group to work with.

This whole thing makes very little sense to me. If we investigate a crash involving say, a UPS truck, the UPS driver is going to get a ticket if he is at fault. That same driver will be subject to discipline from UPS as well, but that's not any of our concern. So should it be of no concern to the investigating officer if the at-fault driver is a fellow officer. The investigating officer should handle the crash and take appropriate action (citation) without regard for any discipline that the employer (no matter who it is) may impose.

Why people continue to think police officers should get special treatment is beyond me. We should gladly accept that we are held to a higher standard, and in this case, we are talking about being held to the same standard as everybody else.

To the poster who says he's going to start slacking in his responses because of this--it's time to find a new line of work. Being professional means doing your job well AND being held accountable at the same time. If you're only going to strive for one of these, you don't belong in police work.

Couldn't agree with you more!!!

One huge difference, UPS drivers are not multitasking like Law Enforcement Officers. We are expected to multitask like using the radio, using the computer, running tags, being observant of infractions, just to name a few. If there was a policy that forbid us from doing the above things while driving, you would then have a great point.

What makes you a professional police officer is that you can do all those things without crashing.

If you can't do that consistently, then you perhaps are not cut out for this line of work.

You show where the statutes give an excemption for law enforcement officers who are multi tasking from being charged with careless driving.

If you can do that, then you would have a great point.

You now what, sometimes you can't do all those things with out crashing. Sorry Mr Perfect. I don't think it was ever said officers are exempt, but it was professional courtesy because we know what it's like to "multitask" more than the common motorist.

So now we are the only agency in Pinellas that cites their own. We are now the big ****s of the county. Funny how our officers crash in other jurisdictions and they don't get cited, but they come into out city boy, watch out.

Another difference between your agency and U.P.S is they make more money than you do and have a good strong union, they are also hiring

I look good in brown.

I have no problem with being held to a higher standard than other agencies.

That argument of other agencies don't do it, doesn't matter to me.

I am professional, I can multi task and not crash. If I do and I wasn't dealing with something in progress, then give me a ticket. I won't lose sleep.

I have been doing this job a long time, I am prepared to make mistakes and take the consequences professionally.

Listen Captain, the point isn't that we should NEVER get tickets... It's that now we HAVE TO give the ticket... What ever happened to officer discretion?

it's called the McNeil rule.

Just do your job. Strive to be the Chief some day and change the rule. Until then, you don't have to agree with it but be professional and respect the fact that those with the gold get to make rules that we don't always have the luxury of agreeing with.

Your discretion is now if you choose to work here or not.

Best of luck.

follow the rule from the dash of your car. The sticker says not to use your computer while you are driving. Stop for every AM, dispached call, and if anything comes in during your travels. You will be following policy and saving an IA complaint down the road. Is this stupid. Yes, but when you end up in IA and they ask you if you used your laptop while you were driving, please answer correctly.. I am all about multi tasking, but when my time comes, I will be honest and tell them how I was trained a certain way, not what is expected per SOP. There is a very fine line between what is right and what is within policy. Tell the truth and stay within policy and you will have a job for life. Shut the laptop down while you drive and pull over whe you are summoned. Stay within policy and avoid an IA.

We appreicate the timely comment to string of messages.

Sorry the truth hurts, sorry about the timing, I'm sure it effects your personal and professional life. I wouldn't want to piss you off, to where you tell me to leave the agency, find another career, and call me a whiner. Timing isn't everyone's strong point, but the information is important. Information is power, cover your can.

There is no truth to what you spout. Right now, good officers who want to work because they love there jobs are being laid off or can't find positions because of budget shortfalls.

I will take either of them instead of your pansey, whiney, boo hoo, the sky is falling attitude. You are obviously burned out, find some happiness dude.

Hell hath no fury like a leo scorned.

Lay down on the leo affairs couch and tell us what supervisor raped you recently to get you to spout such hate. Why hate man? Like is so short. You must have been one of RAC's trainees.

Hate?? I saw nor heard any hate in that post. Another supervisor trying to keep the worker bees down. I guess following rules and being a loyal employee is not right, having an opinion makes you a malcontent burnout. You, are the problem with our agency. Spouting negative comments and expending useful energy on trashing employees. I guess if you do the right thing, encourage others to do the right thing, this makes you a "pansey, boo hoo whiner"? I've neither been raped or corrected by anyone. I guess rules are only a guideline until something happens like a crash, bad shooting, civil rights violation, bad use of force, etc. Most supervisors stick with rules are rules, some have wiggle room, and some could care less. But when it ends up on the top floor, hopefully you have friends or you stayed within policy. If you disagree about the issue of laptops, please state policy fact. Otherwise, please take your negative energy to another agency and their board. Most officers who post on this board do so with the intent to make postive change. This is very difficult when negative name callers come on and tell us the same crud. If you are so much better than others, please tell us who you are so we can conform our attitudes and work ethics to model yours. You have no problem judging others based on website postings, which means you must be so much more advanced than your co-workers that you would be a great role model. I would love to know who comes on this site with the negative comments, because I would bet you could not come close to my stats or personnel record. Even the best officers get frustrated with the status quo.

I have to openly laugh at your post. Your posts have such a negative tone, you could cut them with a knife, yet you claim that not to be the case. How can you have such self blindness.

Also, if you are going to post behind a vail of secrecy, don't bash others who opt to do the same thing. The day you honestly post your identity in a manner that can be proved, then perhaps you the will earn the right to bash others who fail to do the same. Until then, save the rants.

If you don't think you are a negative force at this agency, then I pity you and your zone partners. I have no problem with policies, in fact please hold me to them and discipline me when I screw up. I will take it like a professional. However, I don't come on here "advising" others in a sarcastic negative way. We all know how to work while patrolling, we can all read the stickers. You are correct, the city garage put stickers on our computers advising us to not use them while driving. I can't recall a specific agency or city policy that prohibits it but perhaps their is one and I have just missed it. It is possible. However a common practice, when excercised by everyone in an agency becomes an unwritten s.o.p. and thus nearly impossible to discipline against. So don't fret. I would however strongly urge all officers to carefully utilize their MDT's and understand if they crash while using them, they could be cited. It would be no differnet than someone talking on a cell phone and not paying attention. Their are traffic laws that govern careless driving.

The difference between me and you is that you post your "opinion" in such a manner as to show your disgust for an agency practice and preach we should abide by the same practice simply because you advised us to.

I can't recall any officer being zipped up by a supervisor for utilizing their MDT's while enroute to a call. Once again, there may be a case that I am unaware of, but I have never heard of it.

The reality is, you want to create a negative issue here where there is none. Your are just as bad for morale as a poor supervisor or truly dangerous officer.

Please refrain from the my stats are larger than your stats game. I am in no fear that the quality of my work or quantity of my work is in jeopardy of looking poor when compared to you. I give 100% daily, I put bad guys in jail who need to go, I back up our folks both when asked and just to be safe. I go home safe each night. How many whatevers you do during a shift, I don't particularly care. What I do care about is you spreading your poison under the color of trying to make the PD a better place. You are full of crap. You rantings are a cancer.

It's nice to see you are the judge, jury, and executioner. No matter what gets posted on this site, including how great of an officer you are, you would look into it as sarcastic, judgemental, and detrimental. You are the person with a serious problem, please seek EAP. Everyone gets tired of your downtalking, name calling, and critical nature. I feel you have quite a bit of anger and jealousy raging through you. This place will never improve properly, as long as your kind continue to rip the fiber which holds us together as officers and this city as a whole. Please don't respond, because I will not be drawn into your negative web. I love working here and will be here for the long haul. I hope I find out who you are soon, as I will stay as far away from you as I can. Don't worry I will back you up and do anything else I can to assist you at work, but that is it. Enjoy the misery, which must be your life.

Nice attempt at twisting the facts however others from our agency can go back through the thread and see who in fact is spewing venom vs who is a supporter of our agency and our folks.

I know you directed me not to respond, however, with all due respect for your authority to direct me to do so, I will.

Perhaps if when you posted the recommendation to all officers that they not use their MDT's while driving, your post felt sincere and came from the heart, we may have more warmingly adopted your opinion. However, you posted it in a "we should show them attitude" but failed to explain who and why we need to show them. Instead you left the impression that your opinion comes from your disgruntled attitude. Sorry, that is my impression. I am not the judge, jury, and certainly not the executioner. I am simply giving you my opionion. If you can't simply read a post from a co-worker that may be a little critical, I am sorry, perhaps you shouldn't post on leo affairs if you are not prepared to enter into a debate.

What should be obvious from this conversation is that your opinion is not the only opinion out there and I am certainly aware that mine is not. I am prepared to agree to disagree if you are.

However, I don't lose sleep over this debate at night. I also love my job, but unlike you, I don't spend my days and nights complaining about it. It sounds as though you love your job but despise your employer. I do not. I love my job and enjoy working here. I see no need for radical changes. Does that mean some things can't be made better or that others don't require changes, no, everything should be examined frequently to make improvements, however only if it is done in a constructive and objective way. You sir, do not appear to operate under those conditions.

As for who I am. I am a veteran police officer who works hard every day in an attempt to do my job to the best of my ability. I work with some of the finest law enforcement officers in the country and I am pricipled in my beliefs. That is really what you need to know. My name is not important just as yours is not. I don't care who you are, even if we are the best of friends at work...(which we may be) I will still disagree with you on this issue and attempt to get you to change your mind or see things in another light. However, I am not going to let a post such as yours go unchallenged and give any casual reader the impression that all PPPD officers feel the way you do.

Notice I didn't say if you don't like it here you should leave. I don't want you to leave, I simply want you to change your views. Work smarter at change, your current efforts are falling way short. Try harder to influence others, your current strategy of rantings does not appear to be working either. At least not to this officer.