View Full Version : Good example why the patrol sucks!
This clown tried to run over two troopers and the shift commander tells them not to pursue. If you cant pursue for an agg assault with a MV on a LEO then what can you chase for. SAD! This is a perfect example that FHP management is NOT interested in law enforcement, just 10-65'in crashes and changing tires. Good thing a real police agency was there to arrest the BG.
http://www2.tbo.com/content/2007/dec/30 ... s-breaking (http://www2.tbo.com/content/2007/dec/30/police-man-rammed-patrol-car-tried-run-over-troope/?news-breaking)
Looks like an idiot shift commander.
Looks like an idiot shift commander.
You are dead on! Who is the shift commander right now for mids?
Im from Martin County SO, and I cant believe any commander would call of a chase for trying to kill his officers. That would never happen hear. All bets are off when you try to hurt an officer. No wonder why Troopers are leaving in droves.
It is easier for the SC to say "dont pursue" than it is for him to make to call to the Major that there was a shooting. I am sure the staff got the pages about every crash, fatal, and skyway jumper last night, but not this event. He'll just hide this one in the CAD . . .
This clown tried to run over two troopers and the shift commander tells them not to pursue. If you cant pursue for an agg assault with a MV on a LEO then what can you chase for. SAD! This is a perfect example that FHP management is NOT interested in law enforcement, just 10-65'in crashes and changing tires. Good thing a real police agency was there to arrest the BG.
http://www2.tbo.com/content/2007/dec/30 ... s-breaking (http://www2.tbo.com/content/2007/dec/30/police-man-rammed-patrol-car-tried-run-over-troope/?news-breaking)
Are you freakin' kidding me! I know we don't have all of the info about what happened, but based on the article, it sounds like it would have been a justified chase to me.
Lt's make the big bucks for reason, so they can make a command decision and stick by it. Sorry, I guess Lt's making "big bucks" was kind of a joke. What do they actually make? Something like 58k-60k. That's absolutely awful pay for a second tier supervisor! Maybe I just answered my own question. If I got paid that little, then I wouldn't make a decision either.
This clown tried to run over two troopers and the shift commander tells them not to pursue. If you cant pursue for an agg assault with a MV on a LEO then what can you chase for. SAD! This is a perfect example that FHP management is NOT interested in law enforcement, just 10-65'in crashes and changing tires. Good thing a real police agency was there to arrest the BG.
http://www2.tbo.com/content/2007/dec/30 ... s-breaking (http://www2.tbo.com/content/2007/dec/30/police-man-rammed-patrol-car-tried-run-over-troope/?news-breaking)
Are you freakin' kidding me! I know we don't have all of the info about what happened, but based on the article, it sounds like it would have been a justified chase to me.
Lt's make the big bucks for reason, so they can make a command decision and stick by it. Sorry, I guess Lt's making "big bucks" was kind of a joke. What do they actually make? Something like 58k-60k. That's absolutely awful pay for a second tier supervisor! Maybe I just answered my own question. If I got paid that little, then I wouldn't make a decision either.
Curious..if that's what the LT's make, then what do Maj's make?
This is uncalled for!!! The public safety was in jeopardy. Loaded gun, vehicular assault OH PLEASE!!! Not to mention the attempts on the SD and
Troops. This the definition of derelection of duty. Maybe not intentional on the Supers part. But the policy and poor management put the public and officers involved in a life threating situation. UNACCEPTABLE !!!!
A POLICY RESPONSE FROM TALLAHASSEE IS NEEDED.
I think we should forward a copy of the news article to the "Ask the Executive Director" email. I have noticed an increase in vehicles fleeing from us over the last few months. We had three run from us last weekend. I think we should send Mrs. Bustle an email each and everytime it happens. We keep track of pursuits but we don't keep track of how many chases we cancel or how many times another agency asks for our help and we decline to give it to them due to our non pursuit policy.
I was actually surprised to read some of the comments readers made on TBO forum. It looks like some people were upset that the Troopers didn't go after the guy.
It is pretty embarrassing that the S.O. had to catch him for us. There was a time when an FHP Trooper was THE MAN. Maybe Colonel Czernis can steer us in the right direction.
People arent leaving FHP just because of the money. They leave because this job is a TOTAL BORE!!! Most of us want to be real cops, not AAA with cap guns.
I was actually surprised to read some of the comments readers made on TBO forum. It looks like some people were upset that the Troopers didn't go after the guy.
It is pretty embarrassing that the S.O. had to catch him for us. There was a time when an FHP Trooper was THE MAN. Maybe Colonel Czernis can steer us in the right direction.
I think Czernis is going to turn things around. Someone needs to email him this story and show him. i am sure that the shift commander didn't forward the story. Somebody send it to CZ.
I dont know all the facts. However, there is a policy violation if what the article says is true. Cowardce! Folks I have a question. Why do they send us to the Academy and train us in high liability situations? When the crap hits the fan we need to be ready to kick arse, not be told to 10-66. Not to mention it also involves another Agency. The SC made us look really stupid!
In defense of the SC;
He was advising to x66 long before this s20 tried to run over anyone or ram into cars. At that time no one had any real charges on him and he hadn't even left county line yet. There was NO agg ANYTHING until nearly the end of the "pursuit". The polk x37 asked the trooper a few times what the charges were but there was nothing substantial enough to warrant x31 at that point. The gun (thank god) wasn't accessible to him and he wasn't even aware of it until after he was x15 by x49. That would be why he kept saying x66.
The SC that night is, in MY humble opinion, the best troop c has right now. It's not his fault there's a strict no x31 policy.
In defense of the SC;
He was advising to x66 long before this s20 tried to run over anyone or ram into cars. At that time no one had any real charges on him and he hadn't even left county line yet. There was NO agg ANYTHING until nearly the end of the "pursuit". The polk x37 asked the trooper a few times what the charges were but there was nothing substantial enough to warrant x31 at that point. The gun (thank god) wasn't accessible to him and he wasn't even aware of it until after he was x15 by x49. That would be why he kept saying x66.
The SC that night is, in MY humble opinion, the best troop c has right now. It's not his fault there's a strict no x31 policy.
You say "the gun wasn't accessible to him and he wasn't even aware of it until after he was x15 by x49" My question is: how do you know? How could you possibly know what the suspect knew or didn't know about the gun? Oh I'm sure he told everyone who would listen that he knew nothing about the gun and never saw it before in his life. If you're going to believe a gun-carrying, cop-assaulting piece of trash then I feel bad for you, don't give me 10-94.
SERIOUS STUFF: Our policy says that the "ramming or attempted ramming of a patrol car" does not warrant a pursuit.
I find this to be completely rediculous ! What are we to do- let him ram our car , then watch him drive away. I was working one day when a similar incident happened. Trooper attempts a stop for speed only. Subject takes off into a residential area , trooper 10-66's. The trooper lost sight of the bad guy. The bad guy re-appears coming off a side street straight for the trooper's car , he floors it to avoid being hit.Other troopers were in the area but were not allowed to chase. Now bad guy is miles away w/ no troopers around him and he stills sig 3's a car in a rural area. The victims gave chase but lost him.
We are talking Agg Assault and Agg Battery scenarios here .....what a joke. I hate being punked out like that. I think the general public would be outraged if they knew our policy does not let us chase after someone attempts to ram a patrol car !!!! :?
With the recent info from our Colonel I think we area making some positive changes (more of a LE agency again). Dodge Chargers on the way / being able to carry AR-15' s this is great stuff. I think some slight changes in the "Pursuit Policy" should be made. Maybe Tallahassee will look at some of the incidents and make some changes.
We should not be calling the Sheriff's Office to catch the bad guy......they should be calling us , just like in Georgia and Alabama. Troopers RULE !
In defense of the SC;
He was advising to x66 long before this s20 tried to run over anyone or ram into cars. At that time no one had any real charges on him and he hadn't even left county line yet. There was NO agg ANYTHING until nearly the end of the "pursuit". The polk x37 asked the trooper a few times what the charges were but there was nothing substantial enough to warrant x31 at that point. The gun (thank god) wasn't accessible to him and he wasn't even aware of it until after he was x15 by x49. That would be why he kept saying x66.
The SC that night is, in MY humble opinion, the best troop c has right now. It's not his fault there's a strict no x31 policy.
Remember the Volusia case when the Trooper was x66d by a Lt. from a x31 with a subject that had a child in the car that matched an amber alert? We need to get priorities straight. Nobody is asking to chase through a schoolyard, but the open interstate should be fair game.
The pursuit policy does not need slight changes. It needs a major overhaul.
This is Law Enforcement, not "Have it your way, welcome to Burger King" job.
What good are the Chargers for? What can a charger do that a Crown Victoria cannot? Block more lanes of traffic during an accident? Seriously, if you can't chase, the agency might as well buy Toyota Prius with a yellow lightbar on top as the new patrol vehicle.
With the recent info from our Colonel I think we area making some positive changes (more of a LE agency again). Dodge Chargers on the way / being able to carry AR-15' s this is great stuff. I think some slight changes in the "Pursuit Policy" should be made. Maybe Tallahassee will look at some of the incidents and make some changes.
We should not be calling the Sheriff's Office to catch the bad guy......they should be calling us , just like in Georgia and Alabama. Troopers RULE !
Even in those other states Sheriff is still the top cop. Sorry, but if you want to go to a place where Troopers rule go North to New York and New Jersey. Otherwise, they are merely traffic cops. It's great to have pride, but don't put other places down thinking you rule. The reason the Troopers have a more positive image in those states is because the cities and counties are smaller. In Florida we have lots of populated counties and cities where we don't need FHP. If you've ever been to larger cities in Alabama or Georgia you'll notice these agencies don't need the Highway Patrol. Larger agencies in those states have their own Highway Patrol, like Atlanta. Have you ever experienced how long it takes the Highway Patrol in those states to respond? Longer than FHP!! And that's sad. The reason the highway patrol calls the Sheriff or the police in most states is because your back-up is further away. The Sheriff has the helicopter and in larger counties over 200 Deputies on the street. That's more than FHP has Troopers statewide working. Anyway, being from Atlanta, the residents feared the APD a lot more than Georgia State Patrol. Power by numbers and APD would knock someone out for disrespecting them. State Agencies aren't what they use to be. Real State Police still exists up North other than that, we have traffic cops.
http://savannahnow.com/node/275302
Read this article before making another dumb statement. This is why in Georgia the Sheriff is still the Chief LEO. As a matter of fact, I don’t know of any state with a decent sized jurisdiction that calls upon the Highway Patrol for help other than working crashes.
http://www.alabamastatetrooper.com/high ... 0night.htm (http://www.alabamastatetrooper.com/highways_are_barely_patrolled_at%20night.htm)
Here's another article, t his one about your beloved Alabama Dept of Public Safety. It appears like in Georgia, the locals that you speak so nasty of are covering the interstates here as well. So please pick a state agency other than the south where State Police actual do real police work, traffic, and are able to cover their own area of responsibility.
Read this article before making another dumb statement. This is why in Georgia the Sheriff is still the Chief LEO. As a matter of fact, I don’t know of any state with a decent sized jurisdiction that calls upon the Highway Patrol for help other than working crashes.[/quote]
Connecticut and Virgina stand out at the moment. Albeit they are not Highway Patrol but State Police.
Read this article before making another dumb statement. This is why in Georgia the Sheriff is still the Chief LEO. As a matter of fact, I don’t know of any state with a decent sized jurisdiction that calls upon the Highway Patrol for help other than working crashes.
Connecticut and Virgina stand out at the moment. Albeit they are not Highway Patrol but State Police.[/quote]
Connecticut yes, Virginia NO. Get past the title of the agency, and read the state’s constitution. Virginia State Police are mostly highway patrol but will provide true law enforcement services to smaller counties in Virginia. The Virginia State Police are the lowest paid and according to Virginia's constitution, the Sheriff is the Chief LEO who state jurisdiction. Most of Northern Virginia has county police where they handle all their own investigations. In the Northern States like Connecticut, Pennsylvania, New York, New Jersey, Rhode Island, and so on, their state constitution recognizes the State Police as the Chief Law Enforcement Agency. Virginia is does not. Also in the Northern States, the State Police make more money than the any other police agency.
In defense of the SC;
He was advising to x66 long before this s20 tried to run over anyone or ram into cars. At that time no one had any real charges on him and he hadn't even left county line yet. There was NO agg ANYTHING until nearly the end of the "pursuit". The polk x37 asked the trooper a few times what the charges were but there was nothing substantial enough to warrant x31 at that point. The gun (thank god) wasn't accessible to him and he wasn't even aware of it until after he was x15 by x49. That would be why he kept saying x66.
The SC that night is, in MY humble opinion, the best troop c has right now. It's not his fault there's a strict no x31 policy.
Its easy to armchair quarterback and as always the facts may not be known in thier entirely. How about next time in the press release it is clearly written so that the story is not misread nor misinterpreted. You cannot fault a SC for doing his or her job IAW the policy. You should be faulting those SC who are never around to make a decision. Should I find myself in a situation that endangers myself, my brothers or any innocent civilian, I will do what I have to do, take the heat for doing it and let my IUPA attorney fight the D number. Sometimes you just have to. Enough said.
Connecticut and Virgina stand out at the moment. Albeit they are not Highway Patrol but State Police.[/quote]
Connecticut yes, Virginia NO. Get past the title of the agency, and read the state’s constitution. Virginia State Police are mostly highway patrol but will provide true law enforcement services to smaller counties in Virginia. The Virginia State Police are the lowest paid and according to Virginia's constitution, the Sheriff is the Chief LEO who state jurisdiction. Most of Northern Virginia has county police where they handle all their own investigations. In the Northern States like Connecticut, Pennsylvania, New York, New Jersey, Rhode Island, and so on, their state constitution recognizes the State Police as the Chief Law Enforcement Agency. Virginia is does not. Also in the Northern States, the State Police make more money than the any other police agency.[/quote]
You are correct for Virginia on the point that the Sheriff is the chief LEO in the county because on the ID card it clearly states that the VSP has all of it's arrest power granted by the Sheriff. However they still call on VSP for a number of services that you fail to mention. Additionally where did the pay issue come from? Pay is irrelevant. You, Sir are overruled!
Connecticut and Virgina stand out at the moment. Albeit they are not Highway Patrol but State Police.
Connecticut yes, Virginia NO. Get past the title of the agency, and read the state’s constitution. Virginia State Police are mostly highway patrol but will provide true law enforcement services to smaller counties in Virginia. The Virginia State Police are the lowest paid and according to Virginia's constitution, the Sheriff is the Chief LEO who state jurisdiction. Most of Northern Virginia has county police where they handle all their own investigations. In the Northern States like Connecticut, Pennsylvania, New York, New Jersey, Rhode Island, and so on, their state constitution recognizes the State Police as the Chief Law Enforcement Agency. Virginia is does not. Also in the Northern States, the State Police make more money than the any other police agency.[/quote]
You are correct for Virginia on the point that the Sheriff is the chief LEO in the county because on the ID card it clearly states that the VSP has all of it's arrest power granted by the Sheriff. However they still call on VSP for a number of services that you fail to mention. Additionally where did the pay issue come from? Pay is irrelevant. You, Sir are overruled![/quote]
Wow that means a lot coming from a rookie. Anyway, I never stated they couldn't call upon the VSP. Pay may be irrelevant in terms of what we do, but it is proven that States where the State Police is the Chief Law Enforcement agency, the State Police make more money than any other police agency. States where they have a Highway Patrol, it is proven the Highway Patrol makes less than other police agencies.
I don't care who is better. I'm a Deputy, and that is what I always wanted to be. I honestly feel there should be one police agency statewide.
Maybe you're overruled, or just uneducated.
SERIOUS STUFF: Our policy says that the "ramming or attempted ramming of a patrol car" does not warrant a pursuit.[/b]
Hey mister "try and cover my ass becuase I'm a puss" you forgot that it also says in the policy "unless the member reasonably believes that the violator's actions pose a threat of death or serious bodily harm to the member or others." 17.05-1 D
SERIOUS STUFF: Our policy says that the "ramming or attempted ramming of a patrol car" does not warrant a pursuit.[/b]
Hey mister "try and cover my ass becuase I'm a puss" you forgot that it also says in the policy "unless the member reasonably believes that the violator's actions pose a threat of death or serious bodily harm to the member or others." 17.05-1 D
Yes , you are correct. In that situation we would have been within policy to chase but the supervision did not allow it. By the way I do not appreciate being called a "puss". I will run peple off the road trying to get in the middle of some action but when supervisors are saying on the radio 10-66 and burning up your cell px there ain't much you can do. Hope you can be a man and say you are sorry for calling me a name. KICK ASS GUYS :evil:
Looks like an idiot shift commander.
You are dead on! Who is the shift commander right now for mids?
I would bet it was MM!!! He x66s everyone!!! :twisted:
The pursuit policy does not need slight changes. It needs a major overhaul.
This is Law Enforcement, not "Have it your way, welcome to Burger King" job.
What good are the Chargers for? What can a charger do that a Crown Victoria cannot? Block more lanes of traffic during an accident? Seriously, if you can't chase, the agency might as well buy Toyota Prius with a yellow lightbar on top as the new patrol vehicle.
What about a Geo Metro and you can paint like a hot pink color and get Tampax to sponsor us!!........well at least they wouldn't complain about the gas. :D
There was a time when all state highway patrol/state police ruled. It was before all the local and county sheriff departments became full staffed and were able to handle eveything they were called to. Now, and its not just Florida, the state agencies are way behind the times unless you are a northern state police who serves as the primary law enforcement agency of the state. Look at Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana and any other southern state agencies numbers when it comes to troopers on the road compared to Florida. We have a lot of troopers compared to other states but not nearly enough to do our job. Just food for thought. Be safe.
With the recent info from our Colonel I think we area making some positive changes (more of a LE agency again). Dodge Chargers on the way / being able to carry AR-15' s this is great stuff. I think some slight changes in the "Pursuit Policy" should be made. Maybe Tallahassee will look at some of the incidents and make some changes.
We should not be calling the Sheriff's Office to catch the bad guy......they should be calling us , just like in Georgia and Alabama. Troopers RULE !
Troopers rule what? 30% of the troopers in S. Fl. are applying at Doral or other agencies. You not allowed to chase people who try to kill you. Half the cops in Florida think most troopers are a joke. County Deputies are catching felons for you. Exactly what do you rule?
With the recent info from our Colonel I think we area making some positive changes (more of a LE agency again). Dodge Chargers on the way / being able to carry AR-15' s this is great stuff. I think some slight changes in the "Pursuit Policy" should be made. Maybe Tallahassee will look at some of the incidents and make some changes.
We should not be calling the Sheriff's Office to catch the bad guy......they should be calling us , just like in Georgia and Alabama. Troopers RULE !
It’s funny how things get twisted. I have heard so many times how this state or that state has such a great highway patrol or state police, yet when you dig a little you find out the truth and it is not exactly like what you thought.
In Georgia they have less than 750 Troopers in the whole state. The starting pay is $31,500 and is much lower than many Sheriff’s offices and city PD’s. The metro Atlanta area is out of control and if it were not for several task forces created by local agencies there would be no law enforcement presence on the Interstates 99% of the time. Read the attached article and you will see a quote from a Sheriff about how “they quit calling the State Patrol years ago”. Hell, they shut down over half of the posts at night and all of them go home after 2AM.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1824445/posts
In Alabama its even worse, according to the Department of Justice statistics they have less than 650 sworn personnel. South Carolina has 977 and North Carolina has around 1400. I attended a conference a few years ago and spoke with a North Carolina Trooper at length. After he got done telling me about the radio in his car that was 25 years old and the fact that they had to wear long sleeves and a tie 365 days a year, I began to wonder about all of the “great stuff” I had heard about his agency. He went on to tell me that there was no off-duty allowed, unless you worked at home depot or something, and their pay was lower than many of the larger local agencies like Charlotte. Again things were not as I had heard.
The truth is unless you work for the California Highway Patrol or a State Police agency in the northeast your best bet is with a local PD or county Sheriff’s office. I was surprised to learn that out of the 25 largest Sheriff’s Offices in the country six of them are in Florida if you count Jacksonville which the DOJ actually classifies as a PD.
Please get your facts straight before you post this kind of stuff.
Don't let the drivel from the local idiots get to you. If you enjoy you're job stay. If you don't then leave, please leave. We are tired of the whining.
How does every thread turn into a "my d*** is bigger than yours" debate? Back to pursuits, as far as the general public is concerned, you can't make them happy, so don't try. Nearly every article about a pursuit has a citizen complaining. If you break it off, you should have pursued. If you pursue, with or without resulting in a S4, you endangered the public. Classic case of damned if you do, damned if you don't. The street racers who killed a child recently? I'm sick over s*** like that. Motorists in florida have no fear of prosecution and there is zero deterrence. The florida legislature should be imprisoned. Every last one of them should have an immediate family member killed in a crash on our roadways. Then you would have 3000 troopers with pay, tasers, rational pursuit policy, etc. I know I'm going to Hell for what I just wrote, but I'll have plenty of florida state politicians for company
How does every thread turn into a "my d*** is bigger than yours" debate? Back to pursuits, as far as the general public is concerned, you can't make them happy, so don't try. Nearly every article about a pursuit has a citizen complaining. If you break it off, you should have pursued. If you pursue, with or without resulting in a S4, you endangered the public. Classic case of damned if you do, damned if you don't. The street racers who killed a child recently? I'm sick over s*** like that. Motorists in florida have no fear of prosecution and there is zero deterrence. The florida legislature should be imprisoned. Every last one of them should have an immediate family member killed in a crash on our roadways. Then you would have 3000 troopers with pay, tasers, rational pursuit policy, etc. I know I'm going to Hell for what I just wrote, but I'll have plenty of florida state politicians for company
You are absoutly right. The legislators obviously approve of this type of behavior on our roads. Let the public run wild as long as they spend their dollars here its okay.
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