Polygraphs at Collier

Hey, is it me or does EVERYBODY fail a poly at Collier? After I failed mine, I applied elsewhere and passed two others before deciding on an agency. I also checked with at least four other candidates and found that they too had failed at Collier. I worked for one agency for fourteen years, had a stellar record, accomadations, etc., and somehow they think I'd been smoking grass. Thats actually funny, since my former agency drugtested us all (in Narco) on a regular basis. I was still at my former agency when I poly'd for Collier and had just been drug tested, (urinalysis) one week prior to flying down to do the tests. Collier needs to grow up and or find someone else to run it. Good riddance. Seeing all of the blogs in the NDN and on this network makes me glad I didnt get it. See ya.

did the poly guys find name start with B -mine did with same results he was a big **** yellig and screaming because I wouldnt admit to anything that wasent true.Some military guy that keep bragging about Iraq.

Reading this post only makes me err on the side of the examiner.

Sometimes it is a judgement call so do not take it personal. Just move on with your dignity. You might find that things happen for a reason and you are better off for it.

Life has a funny way of working out that way, if you will let it...good luck!

We never used or trusted the polygraph. Good background investigators are the best method to get the best applicants. But since some rose colored glasses wearers dislike my opinion of their paradise here are a few more opinions.

"Polygraph testing now rests on weak scientific underpinnings despite nearly a century of study. And much of the available evidence for judging its validity lacks scientific rigor."
National Academy of Sciences National Research Council
1997 Journal of Applied Psychology survey put the polygraph test's accuracy rate at only 61 percent

Polygraph evidence is generally inadmissible in court because, as Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas noted in his majority opinion in the 1998 case U.S. v. Scheffer, "there is simply no consensus that polygraph evidence is reliable."

"[Polygraph screening] is completely without any theoretical foundation and has absolutely no validity...the diagnostic value of this type of testing is no more than that of astrology or tea-leaf reading."
Dr. Drew C. Richardson, FBI Laboratory

"Tests that produce few of these types of errors, such as those currently used by several federal agencies, will not catch most major security violators – and still will incorrectly flag truthful people as deceptive."
National Academy of Sciences National Research Council

"The idea of basing any significant decision on the basis of a polygraph exam is ignorant, it's foolish, it's dangerous."
Dr. David Lykken, past president of the Society for Psychophysiological Research

"Polygraph testing has been the gold standard, but it's obviously fool's gold."
Prof. Stephen E. Fienberg
Chairman, Committee to Review the Scientific Evidence on the Polygraph
National Academy of Sciences

"Whether it is screening applicants or screening employees, the polygraph is a failure. I suspect that its days as a screening tool are deservedly near an end."
former FBI Special Agent Mark Mallah

"[The CIA's] reliance on the polygraph is truly insane"
former CIA Director John M. Deutch

"The FBI uses the polygraph as an investigative tool and cautions that the results should not be relied upon to the exclusion of other evidence or knowledge obtained during the course of an investigation. This policy is based upon the fact that, a) the polygraph technique has not reached a level of acceptability within the relevant scientific community, b) scientific research has not been able to establish the true validity of polygraph testing in criminal applications, c) there is a lack of standardization within the polygraph community for training and for conducting polygraph examinations." James Murphy, Director FBI Polygraph Unit

"The best studies of polygraph tests, using real-life cases and published in top scientific journals, find that innocent people fare little better than chance on these tests, with 40% or more failing on average." William G. Iacono, Ph.D.
Professor of Psychology and Neuroscience University of Minnesota
To the U.S. Senate Judiciary Committee Hearing, 2001 "Issues Surrounding the Use of Polygraphs"

"The polygraph is not perfect. Honest people have "failed" polygraph examinations while dishonest people have "passed" them. The polygraph is intrusive and may be abused. If misused, the polygraph can cause morale to deteriorate and ruin the careers of innocent people." -
Jeffrey H. Smith, former CIA general counsel

Try replacing the word "Polygraph" with the word "Union" and it would all mean the same.

It is the same concept.

"Some military guy that keep bragging about Iraq"

What unit, what MOS, call him on it. The box is inundated with personnel who NEVER left the wire. Just because he allegedly was there doesn't mean he played on the two way range. If he did, than good on him.

There is nothing wrong with an agency who has the luxury of being picky with whom they hire. Trying to hire the best canidate has to start somewhere. Agencies who compromise this belief only destroy themselves from the inside out.

Sorry you did not make the cut but it is just like anyything else in life. Not everyone will be selected to go to hollywood, flight school, college etc... The main thing is that you are still a cop doing what you want to do. I am sure there are many others who will read this post that never get hired and only dream of doing the job.

Does it really matter where you draw your paycheck from when you are lucky enough to work a job you like?

JMHO

George,

I have to disagree with your last line. It does matter where you draw you pay check. I now work for another agency and that is for personal reasons. I wish I were back at CCSO all the time. However, where I draw my pay check is not what people would expect from law enforcement. That is not because of the actual agency or its members it's because of the laws of the state and the lack of support from law makers. Our lead states attorney was just quoted as saying " I believe that all drugs should be legalized." that is to include crack, meth, heroin and ect....He further stated that his office will not file on marijuana cases less than 2 ounces. Across the state law enforcement agencies normally consist of 5 to 10 men. Crimes either go unreported or never investigated. The state police all go home at 2:00am.
The people of this state feel that this is great. Why? Because they have never been a victim of a crime. The drug use and sales here are amazing. Nothing gets done to stop it because officers know they will have a ton of paperwork that will go no where. It's sad. It sucks and I can't change it. This makes me extremely sad for the people of my state. So it does make a difference where your pay check comes from. Not all agencies are as hard working as CCSO and not all SAO's are as good as the 20th Circuit. Be thankful you are where you are.
As for the polygraph that is administered in Collier, it has always been a problem with the poligraphers. I personally knew a former soldier who was nothing less than excellent. He was accused of lying about drug use. As a Ranger and retired 1sg at 31 years old, I highly doubt that he used drugs. He later applied with the secret service and has been working as a sniper on the presidents security force. So a few do slip by. A shame that you let that one slip by.
George, sometimes it's better off that moderators not say anything rather than to try and make a statement to soften the blow. I know you have been a member for a long time. I am not sure how long it has been since you were on the box, I can assure you that it's gotten harder. Rest a sured that if SOME of the old timers or what you all refer to as the gold badges, were to take an entrance polygraph, they would not pass. [/u][/b]

Guest21,

It is good to see you back on the forum. I have never been a cop outside the state of Florida and therefore, respect your point of view and can understand your frustration with your current situation.

Please note that I am NOT the moderator of this board. From what I see, Leoaffairs keeps that information very closely guarded and ecourages the moderators not to be involved with the site, except to ensure the rules are being followed. Nor do I hold a rank above LT. I am just a 16+ year deputy who feels fortunate to work at CCSO and enjoys contributing to this site!

We miss you in D2 Bro so stay safe and intouch!

I understand all this guys but there's one thing that follows you. When you "FAIL" a polygraph at the CCSO at the hands of some polygraphist who has no experience and shouldnt be there making decisions about mens lives, THAT result follows you EVERYWHERE. Apply at another agency as I did (and was offered a job) and they ask you, as they should if you have applied elsewhere. You answer honestly and tell them the truth. That you took a test at Colllier and failed. Gladly, they already knew about the problems at Collier with the decent examiners being gone from there years before I applied and offered the job to me anyway. However in most cases when you apply somewhere else, Collier will tell them during their background investigation that you FAILED the test based on drug usage. If you have an agency that doesnt know about Collier and their problems, then you lose that opportunity also. That black cloud follows you everywhere and you have to constantly explain it. Just hope that if you apply somewhere you get someone who is objective and fair and understands how to do their job.

We never used or trusted the polygraph. Good background investigators are the best method to get the best applicants. But since some rose colored glasses wearers dislike my opinion of their paradise here are a few more opinions.

"Polygraph testing now rests on weak scientific underpinnings despite nearly a century of study. And much of the available evidence for judging its validity lacks scientific rigor."
National Academy of Sciences National Research Council
1997 Journal of Applied Psychology survey put the polygraph test's accuracy rate at only 61 percent

Polygraph evidence is generally inadmissible in court because, as Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas noted in his majority opinion in the 1998 case U.S. v. Scheffer, "there is simply no consensus that polygraph evidence is reliable."

"[Polygraph screening] is completely without any theoretical foundation and has absolutely no validity...the diagnostic value of this type of testing is no more than that of astrology or tea-leaf reading."
Dr. Drew C. Richardson, FBI Laboratory

"Tests that produce few of these types of errors, such as those currently used by several federal agencies, will not catch most major security violators – and still will incorrectly flag truthful people as deceptive."
National Academy of Sciences National Research Council

"The idea of basing any significant decision on the basis of a polygraph exam is ignorant, it's foolish, it's dangerous."
Dr. David Lykken, past president of the Society for Psychophysiological Research

"Polygraph testing has been the gold standard, but it's obviously fool's gold."
Prof. Stephen E. Fienberg
Chairman, Committee to Review the Scientific Evidence on the Polygraph
National Academy of Sciences

"Whether it is screening applicants or screening employees, the polygraph is a failure. I suspect that its days as a screening tool are deservedly near an end."
former FBI Special Agent Mark Mallah

"[The CIA's] reliance on the polygraph is truly insane"
former CIA Director John M. Deutch

"The FBI uses the polygraph as an investigative tool and cautions that the results should not be relied upon to the exclusion of other evidence or knowledge obtained during the course of an investigation. This policy is based upon the fact that, a) the polygraph technique has not reached a level of acceptability within the relevant scientific community, b) scientific research has not been able to establish the true validity of polygraph testing in criminal applications, c) there is a lack of standardization within the polygraph community for training and for conducting polygraph examinations." James Murphy, Director FBI Polygraph Unit

"The best studies of polygraph tests, using real-life cases and published in top scientific journals, find that innocent people fare little better than chance on these tests, with 40% or more failing on average." William G. Iacono, Ph.D.
Professor of Psychology and Neuroscience University of Minnesota
To the U.S. Senate Judiciary Committee Hearing, 2001 "Issues Surrounding the Use of Polygraphs"

"The polygraph is not perfect. Honest people have "failed" polygraph examinations while dishonest people have "passed" them. The polygraph is intrusive and may be abused. If misused, the polygraph can cause morale to deteriorate and ruin the careers of innocent people." -
Jeffrey H. Smith, former CIA general counselWhy does collier put so much credit on the polygraph? I for one know for a fact it is not reliable based on experience. :?:

It is simply a political tool for Don Hugo and his minions.

a polygraph can be a great tool for a guy with good interview skills but it should not be a deciding factor in discipline. the polygriphers at the ccso are heavy handed and they probably have small johnsons.

a polygraph can be a great tool for a guy with good interview skills but it should not be a deciding factor in discipline. the polygriphers at the ccso are heavy handed and they probably have small johnsons.
I AGREE, HOWEVER THEY SURE LIKE TO THROW THAT WORD AROUND!

I too was the victim of a CCSO Polygrapher. I was moving along well in the 'Out of Town' processing and all was going well when I flew home. Then a few weeks went by and BAM in the mail comes a letter that said that due to my "Inability to remain awake during the polygraph the examiner was unable to make an evaluation." I did NOT fall asleep during the polygraph. I closed my eyes because the damn AC was kickin in that office and was dryin my eyes out something fierce, but not once did I hesitate or anything else that would have indicated I was asleep, I think that they video tape those and if they do I would love to see my tape. It's all good though I am still with the agency I started with and PASSED A POLY for....It worked out, I haven't been able to sell the house I own right now and there's no way I could afford to live in Collier... Might be relocating soon to destinations Elsewhere in Florida////// Stay safe out there gang. The poly guys are wired wrong, it's not there fault :roll:

Another horror story that Don Hugo will ignore.

I know of several agency members that have had polygraph issues and still work here. Some are management and others are in very good jobs.
Why do some get fired and others still are here?

What? Different discipline in similar offenses? That could not happen - think again.

[veteranrookie]

The conspiracy theorists of this agency crack me up.

I get a good chuckle from some of these posts.

The belief in utopia is ignorant.

there is no conspiracy veternarookie. The facts speak for themselves, and it can all be neatly summed up in one word ---- INCONSISTENCY. There is no such thing here. Discipline, promotions, transfers, you name it, depends not on a set of rules and a fair and level playing field, but on who you are and who you know. Talent, desire, ability, dedication are all second to politics and connections and friendships and other partnerships. No conspiracy. The day will come when all of you rookies will stop calling yourselves rookies. That same day you will see the truth about how this place is run. I hope that day comes soon.

there is no conspiracy veternarookie. The facts speak for themselves, and it can all be neatly summed up in one word ---- INCONSISTENCY. There is no such thing here. Discipline, promotions, transfers, you name it, depends not on a set of rules and a fair and level playing field, but on who you are and who you know. Talent, desire, ability, dedication are all second to politics and connections and friendships and other partnerships. No conspiracy. The day will come when all of you rookies will stop calling yourselves rookies. That same day you will see the truth about how this place is run. I hope that day comes soon.
WELL SAID! I DO AGREE, I WISH IT WAS DIFFERANT, BUT IT HAS BEEN THIS WAY FOR AS LONG AS I HAVE BEEN HERE, OVER A DECADE!
ELECTION YEAR IS COMING UP, IN THE PAST DURING THIS TIME THINGS GET MORE INCONSISTANT.

Hunter just read this thread and was overheard saying, "...let them eat cake".....

Nice clothes emperor.

Hunter just read this thread and was overheard saying, "...let them eat cake".....

Nice clothes emperor.
thanks george!

[veteranrookie]

there is no conspiracy veternarookie. The facts speak for themselves, and it can all be neatly summed up in one word ---- INCONSISTENCY. There is no such thing here. Discipline, promotions, transfers, you name it, depends not on a set of rules and a fair and level playing field, but on who you are and who you know. Talent, desire, ability, dedication are all second to politics and connections and friendships and other partnerships. No conspiracy. The day will come when all of you rookies will stop calling yourselves rookies. That same day you will see the truth about how this place is run. I hope that day comes soon.
WELL SAID! I DO AGREE, I WISH IT WAS DIFFERANT, BUT IT HAS BEEN THIS WAY FOR AS LONG AS I HAVE BEEN HERE, OVER A DECADE!
ELECTION YEAR IS COMING UP, IN THE PAST DURING THIS TIME THINGS GET MORE INCONSISTANT.

Well Guest, it pains me to hear that your situation in this agency is how you speak of it. I would hope that when I decide to reach for the prize that doesn't happen to me. No complaints of that sort from me as of yet. I rather enjoy where I work and who I work with. I must of got really lucky.
If it really is as bad as you say it is, then it begs the question: Why hasn't there been a unified voice for change from this group of people that see these wrongs commited? or are you just going to cast your ballot on election day and quietly sit with your fingers crossed?
If my math is correct, my vote for Sheriff Hunter will cancel out your vote for "whoever." Now if you and Guest 55 get together and vote for "whoever" compared to my one vote,...well you know how it works. Isn't Democracy cool?

Rookie,
I believe this thread was created to voice opinion on the poly, not for whom you plan on voting for. I myself will vote for Sheriff Hunter, but this is not the issue. I can tell you that the polygraphs in the CCSO have injured, destoryed and hampered careers. I have little faith of the machine they use and the way they interpret it. I will not tell you that I believe the people using these machines are bad people or that they are unethical, but I will tell you that too many people (good cops) have had their lives turned upside down because of their interpretations. In most states, the poly could never be used on a cop, except for pre-employment purposes. I believe CCSO, overall, has one heck of a good reputation. Unfortunately, when it comes to the Poly they have failed. Stay low, stay alive.

I agree. If rook doesn't see it, then it doesn't exist. Slide into prb and ask to see the "inquiry files" on the Colonel - then come back and post. I appreciate your optimism...so does Donny.

he no run

[veteranrookie]

Rookie,
I believe this thread was created to voice opinion on the poly, not for whom you plan on voting for. I myself will vote for Sheriff Hunter, but this is not the issue. I can tell you that the polygraphs in the CCSO have injured, destoryed and hampered careers. I have little faith of the machine they use and the way they interpret it. I will not tell you that I believe the people using these machines are bad people or that they are unethical, but I will tell you that too many people (good cops) have had their lives turned upside down because of their interpretations. In most states, the poly could never be used on a cop, except for pre-employment purposes. I believe CCSO, overall, has one heck of a good reputation. Unfortunately, when it comes to the Poly they have failed. Stay low, stay alive.

Guest,
The post was not about who I would vote for. The part of the post you are referring to was an attempt at sarcasm that apparently didn't reach you. I was pointing out the fact that a public voice for change hasn't been heard by me, ever. I only ever see these outcries under an anonymous name on this site.

While we're on the subject of "anonymous", you guys really need to register a screen name. It gets confusing when you just post under guest. I never know if I'm speaking to the same guest or if someone else is firing back. It takes the fun out of the argument.

there is no conspiracy veternarookie. The facts speak for themselves, and it can all be neatly summed up in one word ---- INCONSISTENCY. There is no such thing here. Discipline, promotions, transfers, you name it, depends not on a set of rules and a fair and level playing field, but on who you are and who you know. Talent, desire, ability, dedication are all second to politics and connections and friendships and other partnerships. No conspiracy. The day will come when all of you rookies will stop calling yourselves rookies. That same day you will see the truth about how this place is run. I hope that day comes soon.

wow!!!!!!! won of the fewe posts that are abolootly true and that jist cannot bee faxtually challenged. hisstory proves thiss post is nuthing but truuth. if i did knot no better i wood thinnk i rote it.

I'll register a screen name when you realize you are no longer in the military. Turn the page rook....turn the page...

Guest,

This post was deleted:

I do not see the need for this post. It was malicious and serves no purpose. If you want to post something like this in the future I would suggest that you register a screen name and use initials only when you are referring to someone who is not a fictitious character.

Please do not abuse the “Guest” feature by posting comments you would not normally post under a registered screen name.

This is not a SLAM site and the Forums should be used constructively.

Thank you,
Mod 167

facts are facts..