Trooper Watts taken a training class at Miami PD Station?

[Guest]

Why is this freaking post going on? Im sure the ticket has been knocked down to carless by now and all are back to work. The Trooper was pulling numbers out of her arse and the city officer needs retraining for stupidity for even listening to her babble roadside. He should of just gave his name/badge number and drove away to de-escalate her rage

You two are not going to agree. We all agree both cops are idiots and its an embarassment to everyone. It was handled wrong and hopefully the Trooper will get what is coming to her and the officer will get a couple days off or letter whatever if it can be proven that even was the correct officer as she lost sight. Can we all just move along. I can guarantee any cop with a supervisor in any agency has been told. You had better not pull this crap on my squad stopping another marked car in uniform. Its dumb and a no win situation. I know mine did and we all agreed nor would of ever done it.

Supervisors field officer complaints everyday this should of been no diffrent. It was not the job of a Trooper. It was the job of his or supervisor.

Now lets end this crap

AMEN!

[So fla cop]

No cry babies, I'm confused. Were you teaching me law 101 or backpedaling 101?

No backpedaling by me. It is a shame you lack the ability to comprehend what has been stated. If you think I am backpedaling please show me where. I have proven to you that a person must indeed prove that a subject had the INTENT, ABILITY, and OPPORTUNITY to cause death or great bodily harm to them or another. If not, the judge does not grant them immunty from prosecution.

It is the same when an officer has to testify in front of a grand jury to justify is/her use of deadly force. The officer has to prove the same 3 things based on the totality of the circumstances. However, it is quite apparent you have never testified in front of a grand jury or any case that has had any significance to it. Pray that you never have to because your knowledge base is extremely weak! You remind me of the dumb private on the movie "A Few Good Men." If a question is asked that goes outside your reheresed testimony, you will fall apart.

One very simple but hugely important question. Do I need to PROVE "a subject had the INTENT, ABILITY, and OPPORTUNITY to cause death or great bodily harm to them or another" or do I need to prove why I reasaonably believed so?(or why I reasonably believed I was in fear for my life.)

True example:
A partner and I responded to a 911 hang up around midday. We approach the residence and take a peak through the front window. We can see all the way through the house and can see a woman profusely cleaning up something in the kitchen. My partner says as a joke "Wouldn't it be funny if she was cleaning up a crime scene?" We knock several times, knocking louder each time. Each time she ignores us and continues cleaning. Suddenly a man walks around from the side of the house saying whats the problem? The man has blood on his shirt and he is carrying a large kitchen knife that is dripping with blood. We draw down and tell the man repeatedly to drop the knife. He does not comply. He just stands there holding the knife at his side and continues to say whats the problem each time we tell him to drop the knife. The man is less than 15 feet from us. Shoot or Don't shoot? Do I need to ask his intent first?

[Guest]

True example:
A partner and I responded to a 911 hang up around midday. We approach the residence and take a peak through the front window. We can see all the way through the house and can see a woman profusely cleaning up something in the kitchen. My partner says as a joke "Wouldn't it be funny if she was cleaning up a crime scene?" We knock several times, knocking louder each time. Each time she ignores us and continues cleaning. Suddenly a man walks around from the side of the house saying whats the problem? The man has blood on his shirt and he is carrying a large kitchen knife that is dripping with blood. We draw down and tell the man repeatedly to drop the knife. He does not comply. He just stands there holding the knife at his side and continues to say whats the problem each time we tell him to drop the knife. The man is less than 15 feet from us. Shoot or Don't shoot? Do I need to ask his intent first?[/quote]

So what happened?

[NO CRY BABIES]

No cry babies, I'm confused. Were you teaching me law 101 or backpedaling 101?

No backpedaling by me. It is a shame you lack the ability to comprehend what has been stated. If you think I am backpedaling please show me where. I have proven to you that a person must indeed prove that a subject had the INTENT, ABILITY, and OPPORTUNITY to cause death or great bodily harm to them or another. If not, the judge does not grant them immunty from prosecution.

It is the same when an officer has to testify in front of a grand jury to justify is/her use of deadly force. The officer has to prove the same 3 things based on the totality of the circumstances. However, it is quite apparent you have never testified in front of a grand jury or any case that has had any significance to it. Pray that you never have to because your knowledge base is extremely weak! You remind me of the dumb private on the movie "A Few Good Men." If a question is asked that goes outside your reheresed testimony, you will fall apart.

One very simple but hugely important question. Do I need to PROVE "a subject had the INTENT, ABILITY, and OPPORTUNITY to cause death or great bodily harm to them or another" or do I need to prove why I reasaonably believed so?(or why I reasonably believed I was in fear for my life.)

True example:
A partner and I responded to a 911 hang up around midday. We approach the residence and take a peak through the front window. We can see all the way through the house and can see a woman profusely cleaning up something in the kitchen. My partner says as a joke "Wouldn't it be funny if she was cleaning up a crime scene?" We knock several times, knocking louder each time. Each time she ignores us and continues cleaning. Suddenly a man walks around from the side of the house saying whats the problem? The man has blood on his shirt and he is carrying a large kitchen knife that is dripping with blood. We draw down and tell the man repeatedly to drop the knife. He does not comply. He just stands there holding the knife at his side and continues to say whats the problem each time we tell him to drop the knife. The man is less than 15 feet from us. Shoot or Don't shoot? Do I need to ask his intent first?

So again, you try to answer a question with a question. I could give you example, after example, after example of what could have happened, what should have happened, etc. You have not given a full enough account for me to assess. Again, if you were to write your report that way, without full detail you lose.

Based on Graham v. Connor, if the subject has the ability (Knife) and the opportunity (distance away from you), you can presume INTENT based on the totality of the circumstances. However, since you are desperately trying to save face you make a moot point by leaving out the details needed to make an accurate assessment of the outcome. Based on your pitiful little attempt at baiting the hook, I will not bite. I can think of about 10 different endings just off the top of my head based on what you posted.

One day, when you grow up, you will learn that a good detailed report about the entire interaction is needed in order to put a person that was not there in your same set of circumstances (Graham v. Connor again). So when you provide that, I will tell you if what you did was correct or incorrect based on the totality of the circumstances. Funny thing is.....I remember a very similar STORY/ROLE PLAY scenario about 24 years ago in the academy.....LMAO!!!!!!!! Sounds to me you got this little story off of a F.A.T.S or MILO shoot or don't shoot simulation.

[So fla cop]

Nope no role play. True story that happened to me. We did not shoot. But I'm asking simply if it would be justified. The only facts I left out was the outcome which I will give after you've answered. It should be a simple answer for you based on your vast knowledge. The question is based on the circumstances would shooting be justifiable or not? And how can I prove intent?

[NO CRY BABIES]

Nope no role play. True story that happened to me. We did not shoot. But I'm asking simply if it would be justified. The only facts I left out was the outcome which I will give after you've answered. It should be a simple answer for you based on your vast knowledge. The question is based on the circumstances would shooting be justifiable or not? And how can I prove intent?

Again, your details are simplistic at best! In a situation as you described, you do not know all the facts as of yet, just as you have left them out in your story. What was his demeanor? What was his body language? Etc.? I already stated that by case law, if he has the Ability (knife) and the Opportunity (distance in this case), you may PRESUME Intent, based on the totality of the circumstances. What is it about that you fail to understand??? So, in the Milo simulation, and since you purposely leave out the most important details I will play the what if game with you as well! If he became aggressive and/or started coming toward you with knife still in hand. Yes! You would be justified in shooting him no ifs, ands, or butts! If, he did not but still refused to drop the knife, one of you should have drawn a taser while the other covered with firearm and tased him! I can go on with about 15 more what if scenarios if you like, but it is pointless. So, go ahead and try to prove your little point so I can slap it down!!!

The good thing about firearms simulation training that you are talking about....you always get a second chance and no one really gets hurt....LMAO!

[So fla cop]

Nope no role play. True story that happened to me. We did not shoot. But I'm asking simply if it would be justified. The only facts I left out was the outcome which I will give after you've answered. It should be a simple answer for you based on your vast knowledge. The question is based on the circumstances would shooting be justifiable or not? And how can I prove intent?

Again, your details are simplistic at best! In a situation as you described, you do not know all the facts as of yet, just as you have left them out in your story. What was his demeanor? What was his body language? Etc.? I already stated that by case law, if he has the Ability (knife) and the Opportunity (distance in this case), you may PRESUME Intent, based on the totality of the circumstances. What is it about that you fail to understand??? So, in the Milo simulation, and since you purposely leave out the most important details I will play the what if game with you as well! If he became aggressive and/or started coming toward you with knife still in hand. Yes! You would be justified in shooting him no ifs, ands, or butts! If, he did not but still refused to drop the knife, one of you should have drawn a taser while the other covered with firearm and tased him! I can go on with about 15 more what if scenarios if you like, but it is pointless. So, go ahead and try to prove your little point so I can slap it down!!!

The good thing about firearms simulation training that you are talking about....you always get a second chance and no one really gets hurt....LMAO!

Actually you just proved the only point I was trying to make. That I don't have to prove intent. Merely believe there was intent based on the circumstances.(Was in fear of my life.)

but so as not to keep everyone in suspense I'll tell you the rest of the story.

After about 30 seconds or so of repeated commands to drop the knife, he did. And here's what was going on. The family was having a family reunion a at the house that day. Dad was on the side of the house with his motherinlaw cutting up fresh deer meat for the barbeque. He heard the loud knocking at his door and went to investigate. He was reluctant to drop is knife because he didn't want to get it dirty. The wife was trying to get everything clean before guests arrived she didn't answer the door because she taught it was her husband doing something outside. And their 5 year old son was playing on the phone and called 911. The fathers demeanor was originally defensive as he came around the corner then it quickly switched to confusion. Had we shot it would have been an unfortunate incident. But based on the circumstances I believe it would had been cleared by the agency and agrand jury. But you seemed to have been saying earlier that since there was actually no intent that I'd be waiting for my lethal injection right now.

[NO CRY BABIES]

Nope no role play. True story that happened to me. We did not shoot. But I'm asking simply if it would be justified. The only facts I left out was the outcome which I will give after you've answered. It should be a simple answer for you based on your vast knowledge. The question is based on the circumstances would shooting be justifiable or not? And how can I prove intent?

Again, your details are simplistic at best! In a situation as you described, you do not know all the facts as of yet, just as you have left them out in your story. What was his demeanor? What was his body language? Etc.? I already stated that by case law, if he has the Ability (knife) and the Opportunity (distance in this case), you may PRESUME Intent, based on the totality of the circumstances. What is it about that you fail to understand??? So, in the Milo simulation, and since you purposely leave out the most important details I will play the what if game with you as well! If he became aggressive and/or started coming toward you with knife still in hand. Yes! You would be justified in shooting him no ifs, ands, or butts! If, he did not but still refused to drop the knife, one of you should have drawn a taser while the other covered with firearm and tased him! I can go on with about 15 more what if scenarios if you like, but it is pointless. So, go ahead and try to prove your little point so I can slap it down!!!

The good thing about firearms simulation training that you are talking about....you always get a second chance and no one really gets hurt....LMAO!

Actually you just proved the only point I was trying to make. That I don't have to prove intent. Merely believe there was intent based on the circumstances.(Was in fear of my life.)

but so as not to keep everyone in suspense I'll tell you the rest of the story.

After about 30 seconds or so of repeated commands to drop the knife, he did. And here's what was going on. The family was having a family reunion a at the house that day. Dad was on the side of the house with his motherinlaw cutting up fresh deer meat for the barbeque. He heard the loud knocking at his door and went to investigate. He was reluctant to drop is knife because he didn't want to get it dirty. The wife was trying to get everything clean before guests arrived she didn't answer the door because she taught it was her husband doing something outside. And their 5 year old son was playing on the phone and called 911. The fathers demeanor was originally defensive as he came around the corner then it quickly switched to confusion. Had we shot it would have been an unfortunate incident. But based on the circumstances I believe it would had been cleared by the agency and agrand jury. But you seemed to have been saying earlier that since there was actually no intent that I'd be waiting for my lethal injection right now.

You just still don't get! Tell you what. Use deadly force on someone, go to court and fail to prove that they had the intent to cause you or another great bodily harm or death and see how you fair. You will LOSE! Every case law states that you have to show/prove the subject had INTENT, actual or presumed, the Ability, and the Opportunity. You can presume INTENT based on the totality of the circumstances. Their actions or words can give actual or specific intent. Either way, you have to prove intent. God forbid your entire department is actually this stupid. When did I say there was actually no intent. My whole argument has been that you must prove intent actual or presumed, in order to be justified in the use of deadly force. Good Lord.

Your little story proved my point and exactly what Graham v. Connor states. Based on the information you had (911 hang up) and what you knew at the time, and what transpired upon arrival (the things you observed) and a man with a knife, had he not dropped the knife and approached you with it, he had the ability and opportunity, and based on everything you have said and the totality of the circumstances, you can presume he had the INTENT (Graham v. Connor)! So yes. Intent is still part of the equation! Please Mr. "I don't need to know case law to do my job," you had better learn it, because it dicates everything you do in your job! If you continue to do your job by just flying by the seat of your pants, it will not be long before you crash and burn and burn bad!

[Sgt Saddam]

Why don't you two just get together and arm wrestle or something

[So fla cop]

Why don't you two just get together and arm wrestle or something

I'm sure no cry babies would quote some case law like Stallone vs Producers of the movie Over the Top, as to why we couldn't.

[NO CRY BABIES]

Why don't you two just get together and arm wrestle or something

I'm sure no cry babies would quote some case law like Stallone vs Producers of the movie Over the Top, as to why we couldn't.

I am getting tired of taking advantage of the mentally handicapped! I don't think he even knows what point he is trying to make. Such a shame that hiring standards for law enforcement have become so low that people like So Fla Cop can get a job. However, Miami Dade PD has so many problems right now, I am sure they are very proud of him!

[so fla cop]

Why don't you two just get together and arm wrestle or something

I'm sure no cry babies would quote some case law like Stallone vs Producers of the movie Over the Top, as to why we couldn't.

I am getting tired of taking advantage of the mentally handicapped! I don't think he even knows what point he is trying to make. Such a shame that hiring standards for law enforcement have become so low that people like So Fla Cop can get a job. However, Miami Dade PD has so many problems right now, I am sure they are very proud of him!

I believe we were arguing what intent is and when it's needed particularly in reference to the Trooper Watts incident but have gone off on a tangent.

No cry babies, if The trooper did nothing wrong, then why is she being suspended and transferred.

I hope your investigative skills are better then your ability to pointlessly banter because I don't work for MPD

[Guest]

Why don't you two just get together and arm wrestle or something

I'm sure no cry babies would quote some case law like Stallone vs Producers of the movie Over the Top, as to why we couldn't.

I am getting tired of taking advantage of the mentally handicapped! I don't think he even knows what point he is trying to make. Such a shame that hiring standards for law enforcement have become so low that people like So Fla Cop can get a job. However, Miami Dade PD has so many problems right now, I am sure they are very proud of him!

I believe we were arguing what intent is and when it's needed particularly in reference to the Trooper Watts incident but have gone off on a tangent.

No cry babies, if The trooper did nothing wrong, then why is she being suspended and transferred.

I hope your investigative skills are better then your ability to pointlessly banter because I don't work for MPD

What's the word with her being suspended? Which part of the state will be receiving these damaged goods [bads]...

[NO CRY BABIES]

Why don't you two just get together and arm wrestle or something

I'm sure no cry babies would quote some case law like Stallone vs Producers of the movie Over the Top, as to why we couldn't.

I am getting tired of taking advantage of the mentally handicapped! I don't think he even knows what point he is trying to make. Such a shame that hiring standards for law enforcement have become so low that people like So Fla Cop can get a job. However, Miami Dade PD has so many problems right now, I am sure they are very proud of him!

I believe we were arguing what intent is and when it's needed particularly in reference to the Trooper Watts incident but have gone off on a tangent.

No cry babies, if The trooper did nothing wrong, then why is she being suspended and transferred.

I hope your investigative skills are better then your ability to pointlessly banter because I don't work for MPD

Her being suspended has nothing to do with her actions during the stop but rather policy issues which are questionable. Her transfer is because of assholes like you and others on here who have made threats against her. FHP would be negligent if they didn't transfer her and something happened.

My investigative skills are just fine, and my pointless banter (as you call it) has shown everyone on her what a fricking idiot you are and that you know nothing about the law. Like I said before, it is such a shame that south Florida agencies are so desparate and have such low standards that people like you are allowed to work.

As far as the intent issue, it is laughably obvious that you still have not a clue. My investigative skills were right on. You really are that stupid!!!!!!

[Guest]

Her being suspended has nothing to do with her actions during the stop but rather policy issues which are questionable. Her transfer is because of assholes like you and others on here who have made threats against her. FHP would be negligent if they didn't transfer her and something happened.

Her safety and the safety of those around her