Is the .45 someone’s compensation for......you know?

[Unregistered]

You cant carry a 9 even self purchase tough guy

[Unregistered]

The problem with these caliber discussions is that most people do not know what they are talking about.

Let's take recoil first. The first shot, from any weapon, is not affected by recoil. The recoil comes after the first shot is fired. First shit hits are not affected at all by recoil. Remember this, because it will come up in the discussion later. Now, the second thing to remember, is that recoil only affects the speed at which subsequent shots can be delivered. Realistically, this is only a fraction of second per shot and, if one uses any kkind of a sight picture at all, it becomes largely irrelevant to delivering accurate follow-up rounds to the target.

Next, let's address the grip size of pistols. The grip size of pistols varies for a lot of reasons, but one is the size of the cartridge used. The length and diameter of cartridges dictate the size of the magazine well and overall grip circumference. Wile thiis can have an effect on the delivery of accurate fire, again the effect is minimal with a proper stance and grip. Even very small hands, which do not completely encompass a pistol grip, on a particular pistol, can attain a very secure grip with the proper use of the support hand. This brings us to the next subject, grip and stance.

At the moment, there are three main ergonomic pistol grips and stances in use, by professional carriers. They are the Isosceles stance, the Weaver/Modified Weaver and the CAR [Center Access Relock] system. All have pros and cons.

The Isosceles method is a fast, natural stance, which is easy to teach and master and presents the largest area of bullet retardant vests to the enemy. However, it suffers from poor lateral movement, off-hand support and control and requires the operator to move out of an FI stance or the normal stance used with shoulder mounted long gun deployment. It also presents the largest target for incoming fire. The poor support hand contact and control reduces effective accuracy.

The Weaver stance is a bit harder to master. However, it presents a natural segue way from the FI stance and that used with a shoulder mounted long gun, being, essentially, the same stance. It provides increased support hand contact and control, which increases accuracy as well as controlling recoil. It allows better lateral movement than the Isosceles and approximately aa 270 degree arc of fire without moving the feet out of position, as well. The downside is that it is a little harder to master than the Isosceles and does present one arm hole of the ballistic vest to the enemy.

The CAR system has most of the pros of the Weaver system. The down side of the CAR system is that it is more counter intuitive than the other two systems and is, therefor, harder to master.

The point of this is that the current most popular stance and grip is the Isosceles, which is also the weakest stance and grip.

Now, we come to cartridge size and power. Between the 9x19mm and the .45 ACP, the power levels are just about the same. And, where the 9mm power level is a little higher, the 7% increase in frontal cross section on the .45 ACP allows for slightly better energy transfer. Now, as most target neutralization occurs through blood loss resulting in a drop in blood pressure to attain unconsciousness, after the person sustains torso hits with a pistol bullets, the bigger the holes and the more holes which are produced by bullets striking the body, the quicker unconsciousness is obtained. So, all else being equal, the .45ACP will produce a 7% bigger hole than the 9mm. And, this difference carries over into the expansion of hollow points in both calibers, if they function as designed. Now, if the rounds do not expand, as can happen when shooting through heavy clothing, the .45 ACP round will still create a 7% larger hole than the 9mm. On a cartridge by cartridge basis, does this mean that the .45 ACP is a superior round to the 9x19 mm? Yes. Is the difference great enough to mandate the use of .45 ACP over 9x19mm? Not really. But, one has to remember that the only round fired, which will not be impacted by recoil, and to some extent grip, is the first round. So, it is probably a good idea to choose a caliber which is the most effective on a round by round basis.

Now, to the real reason why the FBI went back to the 9x19mm; ease of training. They wanted to get the scores up, on the range. Of course, the .40S&W was always an answer in search of a question. And other LEAs followed along, blindly, as they often do when the FBI makes a decision on equipment. The military went to the 9x19mm, because that is what the rest of NATO was using and the US wanted commonality. The US military still prefers the .45 ACP, over the 9x19mm, for offensive uses.

So, the question of caliber choice, between .45 ACP and 9x19mm in LE, is largely a moot point as long as effective ergonomics are taught and practiced.

[Unregistered]

The problem with these caliber discussions is that most people do not know what they are talking about.

Let's take recoil first. The first shot, from any weapon, is not affected by recoil. The recoil comes after the first shot is fired. First shit hits are not affected at all by recoil. Remember this, because it will come up in the discussion later. Now, the second thing to remember, is that recoil only affects the speed at which subsequent shots can be delivered. Realistically, this is only a fraction of second per shot and, if one uses any kkind of a sight picture at all, it becomes largely irrelevant to delivering accurate follow-up rounds to the target.

Next, let's address the grip size of pistols. The grip size of pistols varies for a lot of reasons, but one is the size of the cartridge used. The length and diameter of cartridges dictate the size of the magazine well and overall grip circumference. Wile thiis can have an effect on the delivery of accurate fire, again the effect is minimal with a proper stance and grip. Even very small hands, which do not completely encompass a pistol grip, on a particular pistol, can attain a very secure grip with the proper use of the support hand. This brings us to the next subject, grip and stance.

At the moment, there are three main ergonomic pistol grips and stances in use, by professional carriers. They are the Isosceles stance, the Weaver/Modified Weaver and the CAR [Center Access Relock] system. All have pros and cons.

The Isosceles method is a fast, natural stance, which is easy to teach and master and presents the largest area of bullet retardant vests to the enemy. However, it suffers from poor lateral movement, off-hand support and control and requires the operator to move out of an FI stance or the normal stance used with shoulder mounted long gun deployment. It also presents the largest target for incoming fire. The poor support hand contact and control reduces effective accuracy.

The Weaver stance is a bit harder to master. However, it presents a natural segue way from the FI stance and that used with a shoulder mounted long gun, being, essentially, the same stance. It provides increased support hand contact and control, which increases accuracy as well as controlling recoil. It allows better lateral movement than the Isosceles and approximately aa 270 degree arc of fire without moving the feet out of position, as well. The downside is that it is a little harder to master than the Isosceles and does present one arm hole of the ballistic vest to the enemy.

The CAR system has most of the pros of the Weaver system. The down side of the CAR system is that it is more counter intuitive than the other two systems and is, therefor, harder to master.

The point of this is that the current most popular stance and grip is the Isosceles, which is also the weakest stance and grip.

Now, we come to cartridge size and power. Between the 9x19mm and the .45 ACP, the power levels are just about the same. And, where the 9mm power level is a little higher, the 7% increase in frontal cross section on the .45 ACP allows for slightly better energy transfer. Now, as most target neutralization occurs through blood loss resulting in a drop in blood pressure to attain unconsciousness, after the person sustains torso hits with a pistol bullets, the bigger the holes and the more holes which are produced by bullets striking the body, the quicker unconsciousness is obtained. So, all else being equal, the .45ACP will produce a 7% bigger hole than the 9mm. And, this difference carries over into the expansion of hollow points in both calibers, if they function as designed. Now, if the rounds do not expand, as can happen when shooting through heavy clothing, the .45 ACP round will still create a 7% larger hole than the 9mm. On a cartridge by cartridge basis, does this mean that the .45 ACP is a superior round to the 9x19 mm? Yes. Is the difference great enough to mandate the use of .45 ACP over 9x19mm? Not really. But, one has to remember that the only round fired, which will not be impacted by recoil, and to some extent grip, is the first round. So, it is probably a good idea to choose a caliber which is the most effective on a round by round basis.

Now, to the real reason why the FBI went back to the 9x19mm; ease of training. They wanted to get the scores up, on the range. Of course, the .40S&W was always an answer in search of a question. And other LEAs followed along, blindly, as they often do when the FBI makes a decision on equipment. The military went to the 9x19mm, because that is what the rest of NATO was using and the US wanted commonality. The US military still prefers the .45 ACP, over the 9x19mm, for offensive uses.

So, the question of caliber choice, between .45 ACP and 9x19mm in LE, is largely a moot point as long as effective ergonomics are taught and practiced.

That was an articulate post. I can agree with most of that. But I will say this, any bullet can kill. A .22 in the heart, upper spine or brain will kill as much as a larger round. Proper grip is paramount to accurate shots. Small hands do not grip the G21 properly. I would imagine failure rates in qualifications rose when we went to this gun. Why else did we stop qualifying at 25 yards? We qualify at 15 yards and in. WTF is that if not an artificial boost to qualification pass rates? And we still have people that fail to qualify from 15 yards!!! PCSO had success with 9mm Gold Dot. In fact if you look at mushroom rates the .45 doesn’t do well. It’s a slower heavy round. The ballistic gel tests between the two are similar. Why not go with a smaller pistol, smaller grip and higher capacity?

[Unregistered]

How many agencies carry .45’s anymore? Why are we still carrying one? In fact name another agency in Pinellas or Florida who carries a damn .45. And don’t say FHP, that’s a GAP .45. We had a chance at that and someone thought “nope”. Probably the same person who decided we would get Adam’s Arms Rifles. And we see how well that experiment went. FBI = 9mm. Army, Air Force, Navy and Marines = 9mm. US Customs and Border Patrol = 9mm. Every agency in Pinellas County = 9mm. 9mm = greater capacity, easier to shoot, less recoil, and similar ballistics to the .45. The Glock 21 is a great pistol. But so is every pistol that Glock makes. Hell, make Glock the it and only it duty and off duty weapon. No more having to send armorers to what, six or seven different gun schools? In the world of Glock 9mm’s there is a gun for all occasions. Duty gun, Glock 17, 19 or 45 (model not caliber). SWAT jocks could use the 45 MOS and be all operator like. There are a multitude of concealable 9mm Glocks. The 43, 43X, 26 or 48. Bob, think about this, one manufacturer, one caliber. No more spending money on .45, .380 or .38. Armorers and instructors just have to know one weapon system for handguns. It doesn’t matter which model you use, the 9’s are all identical in structure. I guarantee qualification failures would drop. Half the problem with the 21 is it is too damn big. This is a no brainer. I bet Glock would swap you gun for gun too. Don’t let the bald man to your left influence you like he did on AA. Go Glock. Go 9. Hell, do a survey.

US Customs and Border Patrol do not use 9mm’s. 40 cal’s.

[Unregistered]

How many agencies carry .45’s anymore? Why are we still carrying one? In fact name another agency in Pinellas or Florida who carries a damn .45. And don’t say FHP, that’s a GAP .45. We had a chance at that and someone thought “nope”. Probably the same person who decided we would get Adam’s Arms Rifles. And we see how well that experiment went. FBI = 9mm. Army, Air Force, Navy and Marines = 9mm. US Customs and Border Patrol = 9mm. Every agency in Pinellas County = 9mm. 9mm = greater capacity, easier to shoot, less recoil, and similar ballistics to the .45. The Glock 21 is a great pistol. But so is every pistol that Glock makes. Hell, make Glock the it and only it duty and off duty weapon. No more having to send armorers to what, six or seven different gun schools? In the world of Glock 9mm’s there is a gun for all occasions. Duty gun, Glock 17, 19 or 45 (model not caliber). SWAT jocks could use the 45 MOS and be all operator like. There are a multitude of concealable 9mm Glocks. The 43, 43X, 26 or 48. Bob, think about this, one manufacturer, one caliber. No more spending money on .45, .380 or .38. Armorers and instructors just have to know one weapon system for handguns. It doesn’t matter which model you use, the 9’s are all identical in structure. I guarantee qualification failures would drop. Half the problem with the 21 is it is too damn big. This is a no brainer. I bet Glock would swap you gun for gun too. Don’t let the bald man to your left influence you like he did on AA. Go Glock. Go 9. Hell, do a survey.

This has got to be either tac vest guy or tac vest guys boyfriend

[Unregistered]

That was an articulate post. I can agree with most of that. But I will say this, any bullet can kill. A .22 in the heart, upper spine or brain will kill as much as a larger round. Proper grip is paramount to accurate shots. Small hands do not grip the G21 properly. I would imagine failure rates in qualifications rose when we went to this gun. Why else did we stop qualifying at 25 yards? We qualify at 15 yards and in. WTF is that if not an artificial boost to qualification pass rates? And we still have people that fail to qualify from 15 yards!!! PCSO had success with 9mm Gold Dot. In fact if you look at mushroom rates the .45 doesn’t do well. It’s a slower heavy round. The ballistic gel tests between the two are similar. Why not go with a smaller pistol, smaller grip and higher capacity?

First, gripping the pistol is accomplished using two hands, in most LE shooting systems. If an adult can not get a good, solid grip with two hands, then there is problem with the system, not the weapon.

Different rounds achieve maximum expansion in different calibers. Some 9x19mm rounds are engineered to expand more rapidly than slower rounds, such as the .45 ACP. The reason for that is because once the projectile leaves the body, it no longer transmits energy and cause damage. Now, the .45 ACP achieves a maximum expansion from a 4-5" bbl pistol of ~.70" to .76". The maximum expansion for the 9x19mm is usually ~ .67" to .72". As you can see, the maximum expansion on the rounds is pretty close, with an approximate 7% greater cross section for the .45 ACP over the 9x19mm. This provides fairly good results, no matter which caliber you use, as long as all other things are equal. Where the frontal cross section of the projectile becomes more critical, in pistol rounds, is when the round does not expand. If the 9x19mm does not expand, it creates a .36" hole in the human body. The .45 ACP makes a .45" hole in the human body. Bigger hole, faster blood loss, faster neutralization of the threat. The 9x19mm attempts to offset this inequity by increasing the ammunition capacity of the pistol.

As you point out, almost any pistol round can kill, under the right circumstances. However, attempting to use this as an argument to justify using smaller caliber rounds for self defense by pistol, ignores the most problematic fact. Unless the Central Nervous System [CNS] sustains a direct hit, disability is not instantaneous. It takes time for blood flow from injury to drop the blood pressure to the point where the subject passes out. It can take as long as 8 seconds for a direct hit, which punctures the heart or the aortic arch, to result in sufficient blood loss to cause unconsciousness. And, during that time, the subject can continue to act and fight. If he has a firearm, he can fire a significant number of shots at you, all of which are potentially deadly. As you point out, shot placement is critical.

Now, the .38spl, 9x19mm, .40S&W, .44Spl, .45 GAP, .45ACP and .45 LC, are all about the same, in defensive effectiveness, when loaded to comparable levels and having comparable bullet designs. So, which you choose is not that important, if one chooses wisely. Smaller and lighter are not always better. The less weight that a pistol has, the more the operator has to use strength to control the weapon in rapid fire. This adversely affects smaller operators such as women. More ammo on board is always better. No one ever complains that they had ammo left over from a firefight. So, smaller, lighter and increased ammo capacity is not always a good thing. Again, it depends upon the operator.

I will not go into the training and logistical aspect of weapon choice by LEAs. That could take a lot longer then we have time for, and tends to make people's eyes cross.

Enjoy the holidays.

[Unregistered]

Hi you inept POS. Again the purpose of sim is tactics not the feel of the frame of the gun. The feel of the frame is irrelevant and adds nothing to the purpose of a shoot or don’t shoot or building clearing. The 9’s are cheaper therefore why spend the extra money to get 45’s in the sim guns when the purpose of training is tactics and not feel of the gun. You want to finger fuk it or something? If not why are you so worried about the frame on a training gun. Please find a greater purpose in your life other than b!tching about stupid sh!t! If you want a 9 go do a self purchase you buffoon. Oh ya and go F urself you cry baby.

If the purpose of sims is “tactics” and not familiarity then why did we get rid of the Beretta sim guns? See you haven’t been here long enough to know shit from shinola. I’m not sure why you get so offended over someone’s opinion. But I assure you, you wouldn’t talk shit like that to my face or anyone else’s for that matter. I imagine you still live with your mom and call her “mother”. Have you been laid yet? Your finger F comment got me thinking you have some repressed sexual urges. I guess your hand isn’t cutting it anymore. Good luck with your career there Johnny Hot Shit. Go EAD. A whole bag of em.

[Unregistered]

If the purpose of sims is “tactics” and not familiarity then why did we get rid of the Beretta sim guns? See you haven’t been here long enough to know shit from shinola. I’m not sure why you get so offended over someone’s opinion. But I assure you, you wouldn’t talk shit like that to my face or anyone else’s for that matter. I imagine you still live with your mom and call her “mother”. Have you been laid yet? Your finger F comment got me thinking you have some repressed sexual urges. I guess your hand isn’t cutting it anymore. Good luck with your career there Johnny Hot Shit. Go EAD. A whole bag of em.

I hope you know the answer to your own stupid question and are not playing dumb for the OP. You realize there is a big difference between one make of gun vs another compared to model vs model right? The Berettas we had were drastically different than Glocks...

[Unregistered]

First, gripping the pistol is accomplished using two hands, in most LE shooting systems. If an adult can not get a good, solid grip with two hands, then there is problem with the system, not the weapon.

Different rounds achieve maximum expansion in different calibers. Some 9x19mm rounds are engineered to expand more rapidly than slower rounds, such as the .45 ACP. The reason for that is because once the projectile leaves the body, it no longer transmits energy and cause damage. Now, the .45 ACP achieves a maximum expansion from a 4-5" bbl pistol of ~.70" to .76". The maximum expansion for the 9x19mm is usually ~ .67" to .72". As you can see, the maximum expansion on the rounds is pretty close, with an approximate 7% greater cross section for the .45 ACP over the 9x19mm. This provides fairly good results, no matter which caliber you use, as long as all other things are equal. Where the frontal cross section of the projectile becomes more critical, in pistol rounds, is when the round does not expand. If the 9x19mm does not expand, it creates a .36" hole in the human body. The .45 ACP makes a .45" hole in the human body. Bigger hole, faster blood loss, faster neutralization of the threat. The 9x19mm attempts to offset this inequity by increasing the ammunition capacity of the pistol.

As you point out, almost any pistol round can kill, under the right circumstances. However, attempting to use this as an argument to justify using smaller caliber rounds for self defense by pistol, ignores the most problematic fact. Unless the Central Nervous System [CNS] sustains a direct hit, disability is not instantaneous. It takes time for blood flow from injury to drop the blood pressure to the point where the subject passes out. It can take as long as 8 seconds for a direct hit, which punctures the heart or the aortic arch, to result in sufficient blood loss to cause unconsciousness. And, during that time, the subject can continue to act and fight. If he has a firearm, he can fire a significant number of shots at you, all of which are potentially deadly. As you point out, shot placement is critical.

Now, the .38spl, 9x19mm, .40S&W, .44Spl, .45 GAP, .45ACP and .45 LC, are all about the same, in defensive effectiveness, when loaded to comparable levels and having comparable bullet designs. So, which you choose is not that important, if one chooses wisely. Smaller and lighter are not always better. The less weight that a pistol has, the more the operator has to use strength to control the weapon in rapid fire. This adversely affects smaller operators such as women. More ammo on board is always better. No one ever complains that they had ammo left over from a firefight. So, smaller, lighter and increased ammo capacity is not always a good thing. Again, it depends upon the operator.

I will not go into the training and logistical aspect of weapon choice by LEAs. That could take a lot longer then we have time for, and tends to make people's eyes cross.

Enjoy the holidays.

Cool story, bro.

[Unregistered]

U.S Customs and Border Patrol does not carry 9mm. .40 cal.

EAD. https://www.tactical-life.com/news/b...s-glock-gen-5/