Is the .45 someone’s compensation for......you know?

[Unregistered]

We can debate ballistics, stopping power, ergonomics, etc to no end but nothing beats practical field application.

Here's what I found works with me and others when comparing G21 and G17:

- we shoot the G17 faster and more accurately. [see below]

- G17 weighs less than G21 [33.30 oz 17 v 38.80 G21 loaded]

- G17 is more ergonomic and offers better control [See below]

- due to the above, we also have better trigger control which in turn increases accuracy [see below]

- G17 has less recoil than G21 [not really an issue - see below]

- G17 has higher mag capacity [17 std G17 - 13 std G21]


There are other factors but these are what matter to me on the job.

So how many shootings have occurred at PCSO, with the G17, and how much department training time do you have on the G17? you are talking about practical field applications, after all.

First, I would be interested in seeing the documentation of the claim that PCSO deputies fire the the G17 faster and more accurately than they do the G21.

Second the G21 does weigh more than the G17, by all of 5.5 oz., loaded. This should be no problem when carried on a sturdy uniform belt. I carried a S&W Model 28 [L-frame] for several years before switching to a SIG P220, for most of the rest of my career. The Mod. 28 weights 41 0z and the P220 around 35 oz, loaded. I nefer had any trouble carrying them. Also, the more a pistol weighs, the more it absorbs recoil.

Third, the only difference in the ergonomics of the two pistols is the grip circumference and that is really negligible, unless you have munchkin hands. And, it seems that the vast majority of LEOs, who use the G21, have no problem with the larger grip circumference. I would be glad to see the documentation which supports the conclusion that an average person has better control of a G21 than he or she does with the G17.

Fourth, as the amount of muzzle energy between the 9x19mm Gold Dot, issued by the agency, and the .45ACP Gold Dot, also issued by the agency, shows a higher muzzle energy for the 9x19mm, then the actual recoil should be higher for the 9x19 than for the .45 ACP. So, what was your point again?

Fifth, the g17 does have more magazine capacity, 17 rounds 9x19 v 13 rounds .45 ACP. But, again, with all the hoopla over shot placement being the most important factor, and most police shootings, in the revolver era being ended with less than six rounds from the revolver, most of which were the rather anemic .38 Spl, I'm having a hard time seeing where four more rounds are really critical in a police gunfight; unless you miss a lot. Also, as magazine reloads are very fast, compared to hand or speed loader loading of revolvers, and as almost any number of magazines can be carried, having 30% greater magazine capacity does not seem like a significant point.

Now, I have shot both pistols extensively and qualified with the G17 for my previous department. I find the grip angle too acute for my tastes. Neither gun is a natural pointer. And, I found the GLOCK trigger was not conducive to extremely accurate shooting, though this can be overcome with sufficient practice. When I retired, I purchased a SA XD-45 compact for EDC. I found the XD to have superior pointing ability, a slightly slimmer grip, than the G21, and a magazine capacity of 10 rounds, with the short magazine, and 13 rounds, with the full length magazine, to be more than sufficient, with a spare magazine, which one should always carry. In short, I shoot the XD, the P220 and all of my revolvers and S&W semi-autos, better than I shoot any GLOCK. But, that is just me.

[Unregistered]

So how many shootings have occurred at PCSO, with the G17, and how much department training time do you have on the G17? you are talking about practical field applications, after all.

First, I would be interested in seeing the documentation of the claim that PCSO deputies fire the the G17 faster and more accurately than they do the G21.

Second the G21 does weigh more than the G17, by all of 5.5 oz., loaded. This should be no problem when carried on a sturdy uniform belt. I carried a S&W Model 28 [L-frame] for several years before switching to a SIG P220, for most of the rest of my career. The Mod. 28 weights 41 0z and the P220 around 35 oz, loaded. I nefer had any trouble carrying them. Also, the more a pistol weighs, the more it absorbs recoil.

Third, the only difference in the ergonomics of the two pistols is the grip circumference and that is really negligible, unless you have munchkin hands. And, it seems that the vast majority of LEOs, who use the G21, have no problem with the larger grip circumference. I would be glad to see the documentation which supports the conclusion that an average person has better control of a G21 than he or she does with the G17.

Fourth, as the amount of muzzle energy between the 9x19mm Gold Dot, issued by the agency, and the .45ACP Gold Dot, also issued by the agency, shows a higher muzzle energy for the 9x19mm, then the actual recoil should be higher for the 9x19 than for the .45 ACP. So, what was your point again?

Fifth, the g17 does have more magazine capacity, 17 rounds 9x19 v 13 rounds .45 ACP. But, again, with all the hoopla over shot placement being the most important factor, and most police shootings, in the revolver era being ended with less than six rounds from the revolver, most of which were the rather anemic .38 Spl, I'm having a hard time seeing where four more rounds are really critical in a police gunfight; unless you miss a lot. Also, as magazine reloads are very fast, compared to hand or speed loader loading of revolvers, and as almost any number of magazines can be carried, having 30% greater magazine capacity does not seem like a significant point.

Now, I have shot both pistols extensively and qualified with the G17 for my previous department. I find the grip angle too acute for my tastes. Neither gun is a natural pointer. And, I found the GLOCK trigger was not conducive to extremely accurate shooting, though this can be overcome with sufficient practice. When I retired, I purchased a SA XD-45 compact for EDC. I found the XD to have superior pointing ability, a slightly slimmer grip, than the G21, and a magazine capacity of 10 rounds, with the short magazine, and 13 rounds, with the full length magazine, to be more than sufficient, with a spare magazine, which one should always carry. In short, I shoot the XD, the P220 and all of my revolvers and S&W semi-autos, better than I shoot any GLOCK. But, that is just me.

You do understand the concept of practical application, right? That means how it works out in real life, not in theories and opinions of others who had different equipment.

With the lousy marksmanship in LEO agencies nowadays they need all the rounds they can get. They also hire smaller statured men and more women so that's where the smaller grip is an improvement. As far as losing 5.5 oz. off my duty belt, nobody will complain about that. There is too much stuff on there already.

[Unregistered]

So how many shootings have occurred at PCSO, with the G17, and how much department training time do you have on the G17? you are talking about practical field applications, after all.

First, I would be interested in seeing the documentation of the claim that PCSO deputies fire the the G17 faster and more accurately than they do the G21.

Second the G21 does weigh more than the G17, by all of 5.5 oz., loaded. This should be no problem when carried on a sturdy uniform belt. I carried a S&W Model 28 [L-frame] for several years before switching to a SIG P220, for most of the rest of my career. The Mod. 28 weights 41 0z and the P220 around 35 oz, loaded. I nefer had any trouble carrying them. Also, the more a pistol weighs, the more it absorbs recoil.

Third, the only difference in the ergonomics of the two pistols is the grip circumference and that is really negligible, unless you have munchkin hands. And, it seems that the vast majority of LEOs, who use the G21, have no problem with the larger grip circumference. I would be glad to see the documentation which supports the conclusion that an average person has better control of a G21 than he or she does with the G17.

Fourth, as the amount of muzzle energy between the 9x19mm Gold Dot, issued by the agency, and the .45ACP Gold Dot, also issued by the agency, shows a higher muzzle energy for the 9x19mm, then the actual recoil should be higher for the 9x19 than for the .45 ACP. So, what was your point again?

Fifth, the g17 does have more magazine capacity, 17 rounds 9x19 v 13 rounds .45 ACP. But, again, with all the hoopla over shot placement being the most important factor, and most police shootings, in the revolver era being ended with less than six rounds from the revolver, most of which were the rather anemic .38 Spl, I'm having a hard time seeing where four more rounds are really critical in a police gunfight; unless you miss a lot. Also, as magazine reloads are very fast, compared to hand or speed loader loading of revolvers, and as almost any number of magazines can be carried, having 30% greater magazine capacity does not seem like a significant point.

Now, I have shot both pistols extensively and qualified with the G17 for my previous department. I find the grip angle too acute for my tastes. Neither gun is a natural pointer. And, I found the GLOCK trigger was not conducive to extremely accurate shooting, though this can be overcome with sufficient practice. When I retired, I purchased a SA XD-45 compact for EDC. I found the XD to have superior pointing ability, a slightly slimmer grip, than the G21, and a magazine capacity of 10 rounds, with the short magazine, and 13 rounds, with the full length magazine, to be more than sufficient, with a spare magazine, which one should always carry. In short, I shoot the XD, the P220 and all of my revolvers and S&W semi-autos, better than I shoot any GLOCK. But, that is just me.

Hey genius. Did you miss the use of “I” by the person you are replying to? Can you read? They gave their opinion about their experience. Just like how you have given your opinion non-stop as if you have nothing but time and all the answers. Great, whatever guns you like work for you and you don’t like Glocks. Only a fool would turn down greater capacity in a proven weapon and a field proven 9mm round. PCSO has neutralized countless armed assailants with the Gold Dot 9mm. It never failed. There is your god damn field test. WTF is your problem anyway? How does any of this affect your old retired wheel gun era ass anyway? News Flash, it doesn’t. So go troll some other agency’s page. Maybe see if you can find the RetiredLEOAffairs page. And how is Sig Sauer doing with that P220? Looks to me like they are phasing it out. They went from about 20 versions (Full Size, Carry Size, Compact, etc) down time about three versions. I don’t see any agencies issuing P220’s much anymore either. I do see Glocks as the benchmark for police firearms. Glock is followed from a distance by S&W and maybe, maybe the Sig Sauer 320 for cheap agencies. Thanks for stopping by for about the 40th time. Go have a beer at the FOP and tell everyone what a badass you once were. If you went from a 38 to a P220 you never worked at PCSO. PCSO went from the 38 to the 9 to the 45. And that ain’t you. In the words of Ricky Gervais “F#%k off”.

[Unregistered]

You do understand the concept of practical application, right? That means how it works out in real life, not in theories and opinions of others who had different equipment.

With the lousy marksmanship in LEO agencies nowadays they need all the rounds they can get. They also hire smaller statured men and more women so that's where the smaller grip is an improvement. As far as losing 5.5 oz. off my duty belt, nobody will complain about that. There is too much stuff on there already.

This is total BS. The practical answer to people who can ot shoot is to train them to shoot well. Not allow them to simply throw additional rounds down range which will miss the target. Actually, except for the female employee, US males are actually bigger today than they were when I pinned on the badge 3 decades ago. So, your argument fail's to hold water. As I mentioned before, the grip circumference of the G21 is not significantly bigger than that of the G17. And, with a proper two hand hold, almost everyone can handle the G21. As for the additional 5.5 oz., on your belt, get real. It is a negligible amount of weight.

What is with the wimp, Nancy-boy mentality? If a deputy can not handle the issued handgun, they should be transferred or terminated. If they can not carry an additional 5.5 oz, transfer or terminated them. Instead your argument is that, because the deputies are such incompetent shooters, that we should give them another few rounds to miss the target with? Ever wonder why civilians do not think that the LE community cares about them?

Practical application is determined by how the thing under examination works IN THE FIELD. So, kindly give us the statistics which support your points.

[Unregistered]

Hey genius. Did you miss the use of “I” by the person you are replying to? Can you read? They gave their opinion about their experience. Just like how you have given your opinion non-stop as if you have nothing but time and all the answers. Great, whatever guns you like work for you and you don’t like Glocks. Only a fool would turn down greater capacity in a proven weapon and a field proven 9mm round. PCSO has neutralized countless armed assailants with the Gold Dot 9mm. It never failed. There is your god damn field test. WTF is your problem anyway? How does any of this affect your old retired wheel gun era ass anyway? News Flash, it doesn’t. So go troll some other agency’s page. Maybe see if you can find the RetiredLEOAffairs page. And how is Sig Sauer doing with that P220? Looks to me like they are phasing it out. They went from about 20 versions (Full Size, Carry Size, Compact, etc) down time about three versions. I don’t see any agencies issuing P220’s much anymore either. I do see Glocks as the benchmark for police firearms. Glock is followed from a distance by S&W and maybe, maybe the Sig Sauer 320 for cheap agencies. Thanks for stopping by for about the 40th time. Go have a beer at the FOP and tell everyone what a badass you once were. If you went from a 38 to a P220 you never worked at PCSO. PCSO went from the 38 to the 9 to the 45. And that ain’t you. In the words of Ricky Gervais “F#%k off”.

Well, now, I always enjoy a spirited discussion. In case you haven' heard the phrase, "Opinions are like a**holes, everybody has one." If you are going to put forth an OPINION, then you should be prepared to back it up with facts.

Now, I mentioned my personal experience with LE handguns, because I wanted to point out that I do ACTUALLY have some experience with the handguns under discussion. I also have provided all kinds of information to back-up my OPINIONS.

Now, why do so many agencies use the GLOCK? Price. It is cheap and GLOCK runs a great PR campaign. GLOCK never issues recalls or admits it has any design or functionality problems. The Kabooms caused by an unsupported cartridge case, in .40S&W, was a design flaw, when dealing with a high pressure round. Several agencies switched away from GLOCK because of the firearm locking up. But, this discussion was not bout the pistol brand. It was simply that some people do not want to carry a GLOCK in .45 ACP and want to go back to carrying the 9x19mm. To attempt to justify that position, they have put forth arguments for the switch. I have simply addressed those arguments. The result is that their arguments have fallen apart. Now, I have maroons, like you, telling me to shut up because you can not support the positions of the people arguing for the switch to 9x19mm. Few, if any, agencies ever issued the P220. They were to expensive.

If you only want to hear from members of the PCSO, then do not post this stuff on a public board. Have your union sit down with the administration and work out some kind of compromise, if it is really is a problem.

How does it affect me? Well the previous poster's answer to the fact that moat cops today can't shoot for s**t, is to give them more rounds to miss the target with. I really do not want my wife or myself gunned downed by PCSO because the deputy can't shoot accurately. It is NOT about you, Chuckles. It is about the community. To protect the community, learn the law. Learn how to use your equipment.

[Unregistered]

This is total BS. The practical answer to people who can ot shoot is to train them to shoot well. Not allow them to simply throw additional rounds down range which will miss the target. Actually, except for the female employee, US males are actually bigger today than they were when I pinned on the badge 3 decades ago. So, your argument fail's to hold water. As I mentioned before, the grip circumference of the G21 is not significantly bigger than that of the G17. And, with a proper two hand hold, almost everyone can handle the G21. As for the additional 5.5 oz., on your belt, get real. It is a negligible amount of weight.

What is with the wimp, Nancy-boy mentality? If a deputy can not handle the issued handgun, they should be transferred or terminated. If they can not carry an additional 5.5 oz, transfer or terminated them. Instead your argument is that, because the deputies are such incompetent shooters, that we should give them another few rounds to miss the target with? Ever wonder why civilians do not think that the LE community cares about them?

Practical application is determined by how the thing under examination works IN THE FIELD. So, kindly give us the statistics which support your points.

More handgun training would be nice but it isn't going to happen unless you do it on your own. Most people don't care to shoot off duty nor are they gun aficionados so the best solution is to issue them higher capacity pistols so they are not outgunned by the criminals.

I do not hire people or work in HR so they hire whoever they want as long as upstairs approves them. The old rule that you had to be at least 5'10" to get hired is discriminatory so they had to hire smaller people, which in turn have smaller hands. And more females who also have smaller hands. They don't test them to see if they can properly hold a G21 prior to being hired. Again, I have nothing to do with whom they hire. Not everyone has Neanderthal meathooks for hands.

Many us have fired the G21 and G17 and there is no question we prefer the G17 for better grip/trigger control, less recoil.

As far as weight on the belt, any reduction is welcomed. We already carry a lot more stuff on the belt than cops carried 30-40 years ago. Same belt weight on a 230 lb male feels heavier on a 130 lb female or a 160 lb male. But I don't hire these people so it's out of my control.

[Unregistered]

LOL at the guy dispensing handgun advice that carries a Croatian made garbage pistol. How many agencies carry the Springfield XD for a duty gun? Hardly any. It’s got a goddamn grip safety for Christ’s sake and has “GRIP ZONE” emblazoned on the side. Polymer Fudd gun. Glock > Anything made by SA. Dolt.

[Unregistered]

Well, now, I always enjoy a spirited discussion. In case you haven' heard the phrase, "Opinions are like a**holes, everybody has one." If you are going to put forth an OPINION, then you should be prepared to back it up with facts.

Now, I mentioned my personal experience with LE handguns, because I wanted to point out that I do ACTUALLY have some experience with the handguns under discussion. I also have provided all kinds of information to back-up my OPINIONS.

Now, why do so many agencies use the GLOCK? Price. It is cheap and GLOCK runs a great PR campaign. GLOCK never issues recalls or admits it has any design or functionality problems. The Kabooms caused by an unsupported cartridge case, in .40S&W, was a design flaw, when dealing with a high pressure round. Several agencies switched away from GLOCK because of the firearm locking up. But, this discussion was not bout the pistol brand. It was simply that some people do not want to carry a GLOCK in .45 ACP and want to go back to carrying the 9x19mm. To attempt to justify that position, they have put forth arguments for the switch. I have simply addressed those arguments. The result is that their arguments have fallen apart. Now, I have maroons, like you, telling me to shut up because you can not support the positions of the people arguing for the switch to 9x19mm. Few, if any, agencies ever issued the P220. They were to expensive.

If you only want to hear from members of the PCSO, then do not post this stuff on a public board. Have your union sit down with the administration and work out some kind of compromise, if it is really is a problem.

How does it affect me? Well the previous poster's answer to the fact that moat cops today can't shoot for s**t, is to give them more rounds to miss the target with. I really do not want my wife or myself gunned downed by PCSO because the deputy can't shoot accurately. It is NOT about you, Chuckles. It is about the community. To protect the community, learn the law. Learn how to use your equipment.

Yeah, it doesn’t affect you at all is the answer old man. How many shootings have you been in Mister Field Data? I’m guessing zero. ****ing Retard.

[Unregistered]

LOL at the guy dispensing handgun advice that carries a Croatian made garbage pistol. How many agencies carry the Springfield XD for a duty gun? Hardly any. It’s got a goddamn grip safety for Christ’s sake and has “GRIP ZONE” emblazoned on the side. Polymer Fudd gun. Glock > Anything made by SA. Dolt.

Agreed, it is junk so no reputable agency issues it to its LEOs. Made in the same country who made the Yugo! The XD fanboy here with too much time on his hands dispensing advice but can't afford a quality pistol like Glock, SIG, or HK. I never get the fascination the fanboys have with the XD, which is about as well made as Taurus.

[Unregistered]

Hey genius. Did you miss the use of “I” by the person you are replying to? Can you read? They gave their opinion about their experience. Just like how you have given your opinion non-stop as if you have nothing but time and all the answers. Great, whatever guns you like work for you and you don’t like Glocks. Only a fool would turn down greater capacity in a proven weapon and a field proven 9mm round. PCSO has neutralized countless armed assailants with the Gold Dot 9mm. It never failed. There is your god damn field test. WTF is your problem anyway? How does any of this affect your old retired wheel gun era ass anyway? News Flash, it doesn’t. So go troll some other agency’s page. Maybe see if you can find the RetiredLEOAffairs page. And how is Sig Sauer doing with that P220? Looks to me like they are phasing it out. They went from about 20 versions (Full Size, Carry Size, Compact, etc) down time about three versions. I don’t see any agencies issuing P220’s much anymore either. I do see Glocks as the benchmark for police firearms. Glock is followed from a distance by S&W and maybe, maybe the Sig Sauer 320 for cheap agencies. Thanks for stopping by for about the 40th time. Go have a beer at the FOP and tell everyone what a badass you once were. If you went from a 38 to a P220 you never worked at PCSO. PCSO went from the 38 to the 9 to the 45. And that ain’t you. In the words of Ricky Gervais “F#%k off”.

Someone is salty. The thoughtful responses to your childish nonsense are what’s most entertaining about this thread.