Is the .45 someone’s compensation for......you know?

Unregistered · 01-11-2020, 11:24 PM

Originally Posted by Unregistered

The only reason I mentioned it is because I have seen instructors punch holes in the target to qualify people, especially some of the brass who can't shoot. That was the reason they went from 25 yards to 15 yards. But even so, some people still can't qualify. All depends on the instructor's honesty and the shooter's rank.

Works the same way with the PAT. Some of the brass get to run the course privately and always pass. It's a joke.

There were other reasons besides people being unable to qualify at 25 yards, which led to the limitation of that range. One of the reasons is that the State is becoming much more urban. The agencies do not want their employees taking shots longer than 15 yards, if possible. LEOs, involved in shootings are notoriously inaccurate to begin with, only about 30% of police bullets strike the target. And, every one of the rounds that miss are potential multi-million dollar judgements, waiting to happen.

Now, punching holes in a target is ridiculous. Why? Because the agency does not keep the qualifying target on file. The instructor merely fills out the qual slip and sends a copy to the state. I have never seen a qual instructor punch holes in a target, as, if seen, people would know that he was falsifying the qual slip. No one looks at the qual slips to begin with and an instructor, if caught, can always claim an error was made in recording the score. This does not mean that sometimes qual scores are altered to pass a LEO. But, with today's qualification course, it is hardly necessary.

Unregistered · 01-12-2020, 01:53 AM

Originally Posted by Unregistered

There were other reasons besides people being unable to qualify at 25 yards, which led to the limitation of that range. One of the reasons is that the State is becoming much more urban. The agencies do not want their employees taking shots longer than 15 yards, if possible. LEOs, involved in shootings are notoriously inaccurate to begin with, only about 30% of police bullets strike the target. And, every one of the rounds that miss are potential multi-million dollar judgements, waiting to happen.

Now, punching holes in a target is ridiculous. Why? Because the agency does not keep the qualifying target on file. The instructor merely fills out the qual slip and sends a copy to the state. I have never seen a qual instructor punch holes in a target, as, if seen, people would know that he was falsifying the qual slip. No one looks at the qual slips to begin with and an instructor, if caught, can always claim an error was made in recording the score. This does not mean that sometimes qual scores are altered to pass a LEO. But, with today's qualification course, it is hardly necessary.

No, the qualifying was reduced to shooting at 15 yards max because most of the misses were from the 25 yard line. It's much easier to qualify now and reduces remedial training too.

Unregistered · 01-12-2020, 12:43 PM

WOW. Y'all are a bunch of sad MFers!

Unregistered · 01-12-2020, 06:05 PM

Change will happen, it's just that the troglodyte brass doesn't like it when the ideas come from the bottom. If they believe it came from them they will implement it.

Unregistered · 01-12-2020, 06:19 PM

Originally Posted by Unregistered

No, the qualifying was reduced to shooting at 15 yards max because most of the misses were from the 25 yard line. It's much easier to qualify now and reduces remedial training too.

In the old qualification regimen, there were only six shots fired from the 25 yard line. It was reduced from twelve with a reload in the previous qualification regimen. But, six rounds should not make or break a shooter, if he can hit the target from 15 yards or less. While eliminating the 25 yard qualification does make it somewhat easier to qualify, it does not make a significant difference.

The main problem is that most LEOs simply can't shoot. This is largely because they think that they will never have to. They do not practice. Departments have less than efficient training programs, for firearms. If you cn't put 40 rounds into an 8 inch square, at 50 feet, under controlled training circumstances, then you probably shouldn't be carrying a gun to begin with. Also, for liability reasons, departments were happy when the 25 yard stage was dropped. If Deputy Deadeye shoots the wrong person at ranges greater than 15 yards, they can truthfully say that he was never trained to shoot at that distance. Much of what agencies do is designed to benefit them, usually in the area of liability.

Unregistered · 01-13-2020, 02:04 AM

"While eliminating the 25 yard qualification does make it somewhat easier to qualify, it does not make a significant difference."

Actually it made all the difference. Over 90% of the misses were from the 25 yard line. They got rid of it and now practically everyone qualifies on the first try. Let's face it, most deputies have lousy marksmanship because they don't practice.

Unregistered · 01-13-2020, 02:48 PM

Originally Posted by Unregistered

It's quite simple, the 9mm round is traveling almost 40% faster than the 45ACP. As any decent traffic cop knows, speed kills. It's why getting t-boned by a 3000lb sports car traveling at 100MPH will most likely kill you while getting hit by a 30,000lb bus at 10MPH won't.

Since we are talking specifically about PCSO, let's compare the ammunition approved and issued by the agency. Speer
Gold Dot 230 grain standard pressure 45ACP and 124 grain +P 9mm. The agency doesn't approve, nor issue, +P ammo in 45ACP, but does issue +P 9mm. The ammo specs according to Speer are:

45ACP ------------------------------------ 9MM
Muzzle Velocity - 890 fps -------------1220 fps
Muzzle Energy - 404 ft lbs ------------410 ft lbs

So tell me how a 45ACP round with LESS energy and traveling at a slower velocity is a more effective fight stopper than the 9MM with its higher energy and higher velocity?

You seem to be infatuated with Frontal Cross Section, but if it is so crucial to ballistic performance, please explain how a 55gr 5.556 round which weighs just 25% of a 230gr 45ACP round, and has a significantly smaller "Frontal Cross Section" is a far superior man-stopper than the 45? That's right...........Velocity!

What an idiot. I sure hope you are not in training. Here we go genius: As far as your sexual liking for 9mm, you fail to mention the size comparison of the temporary and permanent cavity left behind by the two. The .45 dominates in this area. Second, the size of the projectile when fully expanded does the damage, not velocity. Look at the Lucky Gunner ballistics comparison and you will see you are wrong again.

Finally, let's take your flawed 5.56 argument. Any ballistics expert will tell you that the 5.56 does its damage when it tumbles when it hits the flesh, which makes it very lethal. Velocity has nothing to do with it. Go back to sleeping with your 9mm as your spouse and let us real men who don't limp wrist a .45 put a hole in the maggot the side of Tampabay while you are figuring out how a person survived by getting hit with a 9mm.

Unregistered · 01-13-2020, 05:23 PM

"Finally, let's take your flawed 5.56 argument. Any ballistics expert will tell you that the 5.56 does its damage when it tumbles when it hits the flesh, which makes it very lethal. Velocity has nothing to do with it."

In your .45 fairy tale world a .223 bullet at 1,000 feet per second does the same damage as one moving at 3,000 feet per second because velocity doesn't matter.

The second fallacy is that .223 stopping power is caused by the bullet tumbling. This was Vietnam era myth to give the troops more confidence in the newly issued M-16. Today we use 223 ammo with expanding bullets which have much more energy and stopping power than .45 and 9 mm.

There have been numerous studies which have proven modern JHP 9 mm and 45 ACP have the same stopping power but the 9 mm has a ammo capacity advantage. That is why LEO agencies are going to 9 mm. But you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

Unregistered · 01-13-2020, 06:21 PM

Originally Posted by Unregistered

"Finally, let's take your flawed 5.56 argument. Any ballistics expert will tell you that the 5.56 does its damage when it tumbles when it hits the flesh, which makes it very lethal. Velocity has nothing to do with it."

In your .45 fairy tale world a .223 bullet at 1,000 feet per second does the same damage as one moving at 3,000 feet per second because velocity doesn't matter.

The second fallacy is that .223 stopping power is caused by the bullet tumbling. This was Vietnam era myth to give the troops more confidence in the newly issued M-16. Today we use 223 ammo with expanding bullets which have much more energy and stopping power than .45 and 9 mm.

There have been numerous studies which have proven modern JHP 9 mm and 45 ACP have the same stopping power but the 9 mm has a ammo capacity advantage. That is why LEO agencies are going to 9 mm. But you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

Actually, the .223, traveling at 1000 fps, is a .22LR. Now, please tell us that the 22 lr is a superior fight-stopping round to the 9x19mm and he .45 ACP. If it is, then let's arm all LEOs with .22 pistols and save all of this discussion.

Velocity is important. But, it does no damage unless it is transferred to the target. This is done, primarily, by the frontal cross section of the projectile. But, over a certain threshold, ~2000 fps, the shockwave, produced by the projectile penetrating the flesh, actually causes additional damage to surrounding flesh and causes accelerated blood loss. In most pistol rounds, fired from a handgun, this critical threshold is not reached and energy transfer is limited, mainly, to the energy transferred by the frontal cross section of the round. Firearms dweebs know this..