Trooper stops Sheriff

Unregistered · 01-13-2017, 10:56 PM

Originally Posted by Unregistered

First off you are both incorrect on this issue. A trooper cannot open carry in another state without some type of authorization. Secondly armed security is a licensed and regulated profession so the troopers are not "just armed security".

Prior to HR 218 a officer in one state would be criminally charged for carrying a weapon in another state without a valid CCW.

So I can promise you there is at the bare minimum a written memorandum of understanding between FHP and the states that they are traveling to.

Because in Florida operating as armed security without a license is a felony as I am sure it is in many other states.

You're completely wrong and have no idea what you're talking about. I work every game with one of the Universities here. I've worked with about a dozen different agencies including State Police, Highway Patrol, City Police and Campus Police. Guess what? None of them have any written "authorization" from FHP, FDLE, or anyone else. None. Not one. Now, this is only from what I know from actually asking the Troopers/Officers themselves but then again
they're not Internet know-it-all jackasses so they may be wrong.

Unregistered · 01-14-2017, 02:19 AM

Originally Posted by Unregistered

You're completely wrong and have no idea what you're talking about. I work every game with one of the Universities here. I've worked with about a dozen different agencies including State Police, Highway Patrol, City Police and Campus Police. Guess what? None of them have any written "authorization" from FHP, FDLE, or anyone else. None. Not one. Now, this is only from what I know from actually asking the Troopers/Officers themselves but then again
they're not Internet know-it-all jackasses so they may be wrong.

I see you noted you work State Police?? What State Police Fl does not have a state police??? You work "with" are you the Trooper that escorts a coach around the US? Based on your answer I am guessing no..

Further I spoke with the FHP LT Col who handles all the coach escorts and confirmed that there is in fact a MOU in place.

(I wasn't talking to him specifically about this issue but another about some of my deputies working out of state on a case and the subject came up)

States like NJ simply being in possession of a hallow point round or mag over 10 is a Felony. The way a FHP trooper is able to travel from state to state armed is not operating as a "Armed Security guard" as several have put it. They are in fact on official duty status which as a LEO on official duty they can carry their issued weapons. Further being that they are on official duty battery on them would carry the weight of bat LEO in the state they are working. So just cause you have worked a couple games doesn't mean the boots on the ground know all the inner workings of everything that is going on.

If they are simply "armed security" as you state then you are subject to arrest when you travel to any one of the states with mag restrictions and licensing requirements for security.

I will give you an example its like when all the LEO meet for National LEO week. They are all carrying and in uniform, its because they are all technically "ON DUTY" the entire week which exempts them from all the local laws and requirements.

I think we are trying to say the same thing however have gotten off path here. Yes the LEO escorting coaches DO NOT have arrest authority out of state, however they are considered ON DUTY LEO on official business not just JOE BLOW armed security. Does this make sense? Can we agree on that?

Unregistered · 01-14-2017, 03:23 AM

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I see you noted you work State Police?? What State Police Fl does not have a state police??? You work "with" are you the Trooper that escorts a coach around the US? Based on your answer I am guessing no..

Further I spoke with the FHP LT Col who handles all the coach escorts and confirmed that there is in fact a MOU in place.

(I wasn't talking to him specifically about this issue but another about some of my deputies working out of state on a case and the subject came up)

States like NJ simply being in possession of a hallow point round or mag over 10 is a Felony. The way a FHP trooper is able to travel from state to state armed is not operating as a "Armed Security guard" as several have put it. They are in fact on official duty status which as a LEO on official duty they can carry their issued weapons. Further being that they are on official duty battery on them would carry the weight of bat LEO in the state they are working. So just cause you have worked a couple games doesn't mean the boots on the ground know all the inner workings of everything that is going on.

If they are simply "armed security" as you state then you are subject to arrest when you travel to any one of the states with mag restrictions and licensing requirements for security.

I will give you an example its like when all the LEO meet for National LEO week. They are all carrying and in uniform, its because they are all technically "ON DUTY" the entire week which exempts them from all the local laws and requirements.

I think we are trying to say the same thing however have gotten off path here. Yes the LEO escorting coaches DO NOT have arrest authority out of state, however they are considered ON DUTY LEO on official business not just JOE BLOW armed security. Does this make sense? Can we agree on that?

I'll try to break it down a bit simpler. I'm an FHP Trooper. I work the games here here as in Florida. As in, when the local university football team plays home games. Those home games have visiting teams, nearly all from out-of-state. Those out-of-sate teams bring LEOs. Sometimes those LEOs are State Police, sometimes they are highway patrol, other times they are the city police from the city the university is in and sometimes they're campus police. I meet with all of them. Before the policy changed some of them used to ride in my car. None of them said they signed an official MOU. In fact sometimes campus pd has come with the team at the last minute because the state police wasn't available. You're right that they're not "armed security" as in an officially licensed G Licensed security guard but in effect that's what they are.

I have no idea what the "traveling" FHP Troopers do or don't do, or what they signed or didn't sign. I only know how it works with visiting LEOs here.

I will say, though, that at all times when the visiting LEOs are in uniform they are physically accompanied by a Florida campus PD officer or Trooper.

Unregistered · 01-14-2017, 03:32 AM

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I'll try to break it down a bit simpler. I'm an FHP Trooper. I work the games here here as in Florida. As in, when the local university football team plays home games. Those home games have visiting teams, nearly all from out-of-state. Those out-of-sate teams bring LEOs. Sometimes those LEOs are State Police, sometimes they are highway patrol, other times they are the city police from the city the university is in and sometimes they're campus police. I meet with all of them. Before the policy changed some of them used to ride in my car. None of them said they signed an official MOU. In fact sometimes campus pd has come with the team at the last minute because the state police wasn't available. You're right that they're not "armed security" as in an officially licensed G Licensed security guard but in effect that's what they are.

I have no idea what the "traveling" FHP Troopers do or don't do, or what they signed or didn't sign. I only know how it works with visiting LEOs here.

I will say, though, that at all times when the visiting LEOs are in uniform they are physically accompanied by a Florida campus PD officer or Trooper.

Makes sense; just to clarify a MOU would not be signed at the boots on ground level. It would be an admin thing that is handled at the top. The trooper/officer on the ground would have nothing to do with it at all, other than any policies that might govern the detail, boots on ground may not even be aware of any MOU's. But thank you for clarifying your post. And yes I agree with you Technically nothing more than a tradition, but so paint them as ONLY SECURITY i think sells the guys a little short.

Unregistered · 02-27-2017, 04:47 PM

I suppose this FHP sergeant has no plans of leaving FHP because he just closed a lot of doors on his career.

Unregistered · 04-10-2017, 10:40 AM

In many northern states, there seems to be some kind of supremacy design with state agencies.
In Florida, it really comes down to this.

The Florida Highway Patrol has no supremacy.
This is because all sworn law enforcement within the state have an equal scope of authority by definition.
Any sworn member of any agency can enforce any law within the state within their jursidictions.

Some agencies have directives or general orders that condition the concentration of enforcement.
You probably won't see beverage enforcement running speed or traffic very often but that doesn't mean they can't.

What the Florida Highway Patrol does have as an agency standard is discipline and pride.
They are a state law enforcement agency primarily responsible for traffic crashes and enforcement. They are trained to be supremely competent in these areas of law enforcement and while mistakes are made, the agency is supposed to be able to execute their duties with absolute precision.

Mutual aid agreements do allow jurisdictions of agencies to be shared. Several state attorney opinions however have questioned the right of an out of jurisdiction agency operating under a mutual aid agreement to enforce traffic laws.

In this case, you have a Sheriff operating in a law enforcement capacity outside of Union County. It's important to understand that generally speaking, mutual aid agreements are usually executed between law enforcement agencies in a single county. There may be scenarios where other counties have entered into those agreements, but it's more common place for an agreement to exist between a city and a county for the purpose of added protection, agency support, and to remove the boundary limitations on those underlying city agencies.

So the question here is..

Did the Sheriff have the right to active emergency lights and sirens while outside of his county and clearly where a mutual aid agreement doesn't exist?

The plain old general answer would be no.
There can be other considerations here though that could lessen the effect of his behavior.
For instance, I believe Florida Statutes allows a Sheriff to appoint an individual as a member of his or her staff at professional discretion. In theory, the Sheriff of the county he was passing through could have verbally appointed him a member of that agency, and that would perhaps remove any jurisdictional concerns. But then you have the question about whether or not activating emergency lights and sirens is regulated by statute or general orders and agency policies. And just because an agency policy is violated doesn't mean it's a violation of statute. If he were to activate lights and sirens in his own county and violate his own policies, there probably isn't much that would come from those violations. Unless of course the state wanted to make an example and charged him with official misconduct since he is an elected official.

Here's another example.

I live in the Tampa market. Returning home one day, I saw a Seminole Indian Casino police vehicle stop to assist an accident. No emergency vehicles were on scene at that time and no injuries were evident. He positioned his vehicle in front of the accident and activated his emergency lights forcing traffic to go around him. This occurred one county northwest of where his agency is located.

Now I understand the reason he stopped and his motives for helping but activating his emergency lights are actually meaningless. I made contact with the agency of jurisdiction and they were not aware of his involvement. This means no member of law enforcement could have ordered him to assist. Keep in mind the Seminole Indian Casino has a state authorized tribal law enforcement agency but the agency is non-governmental. That's why tribal police car don't have state issued license plates (yellow).

So the reality here is, that tribal police officer probably had no right to activate his lights in another county and perhaps even away from his tribal compound. Your average person wouldn't honestly know the difference but even if he were rendering public aid in good faith, he used his non-governmental agency vehicle in a law enforcement capacity for a non-felony intervention in another county.

I guess it's one of those situations where the good outweighs the non-compliance. But the truth his, while his lights were a commanding visual indicator to oncoming traffic, they were probably meaningless other than highway decor.

Unregistered · 04-11-2017, 01:38 AM

The Florida Sheriffs assoc through the Florida Sheriffs Compact has mutual aid agreements throughout the state in all 67 counties. Mutual can either be activated through phone call or in person. This does not require the granting agency to be on scene.

What it does require that if an arrest is made the person must be taken to the jail in County in which the arrest is made. There are of course exceptions to this.

I live outside my County I respond lights and sirens to call outs and or issues within my County whenever the situation calls for it.

Your situation with the tribal officer is way off base. In the interests of public safety he is well within.his rights to block traffic.

So me the case law of doing traffic under mutual aid agreements? We do DUI task forces often using city officer ND have never had a case dropped because of one.

And again on my drive home in the interests public I have stopped vehicles one of which was DUI and others have been reckless. (I drive an unmarked)

You can.have all the theories in the world but in common practice nothing you just mentioned is actually correct.

I will say the sheriff probably had no business driving with his lights on since it wasn't an actual call or public safety issue. But since he is the sheriff and his official duty was to escorts the bus there is an argument that could be made.

Unregistered · 04-11-2017, 03:39 AM

I say this is a 4 year old incident and is no longer important. What ever happened happened, now there's biggest issues to focus on. Like what I'm having for lunch tomorrow.