I4 Shooting - Speeding Policy

http://tbo.com/news/crime/orlando-man-k ... -20130630/

So unfortunately the day has come... someone has been killed and HCSO's response was way too slow. Will this finally shed some public scrutiny on HCSO response times and the policy of not speeding to anything except a deputy needing assistance? It took about 20 minutes to get a unit x97.

Citizens posting on TBO are correct, deputies should have been swarming the area running code. We all know this wasn't the case....

you mean you can only speed to deputy needs assistance and not to Joe Blow citizen needs assistance? Hurry up and help out the cop that HAS a GUN and a TASER and CHEMICAL SPRAY and is trained in SELF-DEFENSE, yet take your time helping the poor soul that has none of these things available?

Basically, yes.

The written policy states we can exceed the speed limit and violate traffic laws if an emergency condition exists, but we are told daily (multiple times daily) not to speed for any reason except a deputy calling for backup.

I understand the level of liability HCSO faces and that the agency averages about one traffic crash per day involving an HCSO vehicle (I believe 70%+ are not the fault of the HCSO driver in all fairness). However, we are a law enforcement agency and in many circumstances we are the difference between life and death. We hold an incredible amount of responsibility and authority to protect the citizens of this county, and I take great pride in that. Due to this level of pride, I feel as if I let citizens down when my response time is too slow.

The citizens of Hillsborough County don't realize that if you report a burglary/home invasion in progress of your residence, or a robbery of a person/business, you most likely will not have deputies running lights and sirens to you. Almost every night I speed or run code just hoping a supervisor doesn't see it, because I feel it is my duty to respond promptly to violent or potentially violent situations.

Citizens of Hillsborough County would also be surprised at how often EMS is staging on a call and HCSO is responding in a routine manner. This just means the individual needing medical attention is waiting on us, and we aren't making it a priority to arrive. I always try to step it up if EMS is staging for me (and most likely it is a violent call to begin with), but I know the day will come when my GPS will get pulled and I will have to explain why I was doing my job the way it should be done.

The slow response to this shooting may be enough for the command staff to look at how their scare tactics regarding speeding has impacted our response times, or it may come down to more citizens being hurt or killed before something happens. When seconds count, the police are sometimes minutes away. This is a reality that we cannot change, but we can do our best to quickly and safely arrive to the scene, which means speeding and clearing some intersections. Think about how many minutes you lose by stopping at a few red lights on your way to your next non-priority call, then imagine that call is a shooting and look at how many minutes later you would arrive by stopping at all those lights.

Basically, yes.

The written policy states we can exceed the speed limit and violate traffic laws if an emergency condition exists, but we are told daily (multiple times daily) not to speed for any reason except a deputy calling for backup.

I understand the level of liability HCSO faces and that the agency averages about one traffic crash per day involving an HCSO vehicle (I believe 70%+ are not the fault of the HCSO driver in all fairness). However, we are a law enforcement agency and in many circumstances we are the difference between life and death. We hold an incredible amount of responsibility and authority to protect the citizens of this county, and I take great pride in that. Due to this level of pride, I feel as if I let citizens down when my response time is too slow.

The citizens of Hillsborough County don't realize that if you report a burglary/home invasion in progress of your residence, or a robbery of a person/business, you most likely will not have deputies running lights and sirens to you. Almost every night I speed or run code just hoping a supervisor doesn't see it, because I feel it is my duty to respond promptly to violent or potentially violent situations.

Citizens of Hillsborough County would also be surprised at how often EMS is staging on a call and HCSO is responding in a routine manner. This just means the individual needing medical attention is waiting on us, and we aren't making it a priority to arrive. I always try to step it up if EMS is staging for me (and most likely it is a violent call to begin with), but I know the day will come when my GPS will get pulled and I will have to explain why I was doing my job the way it should be done.

The slow response to this shooting may be enough for the command staff to look at how their scare tactics regarding speeding has impacted our response times, or it may come down to more citizens being hurt or killed before something happens. When seconds count, the police are sometimes minutes away. This is a reality that we cannot change, but we can do our best to quickly and safely arrive to the scene, which means speeding and clearing some intersections. Think about how many minutes you lose by stopping at a few red lights on your way to your next non-priority call, then imagine that call is a shooting and look at how many minutes later you would arrive by stopping at all those lights.

Well said!

[Average Joe]

The written policy states we can exceed the speed limit and violate traffic laws if an emergency condition exists, but we are told daily (multiple times daily) not to speed for any reason except a deputy calling for backup.

Doesn't matter what they tell you, what matters is what the written policy is. A court will side with you every time if you are within policy.

Now if you want to say that you do not want to take on the office brass that is something else. But remember when the written policy states you can exceed the limit for emergency conditions and you do not, and the media goes to the brass, the brass will turn on you in a heart beat and site that very policy and say you failed in your duties.

I've been here a looooong time and I work the streets. I run x18 almost daily, when I think I am justified. I WILL deal with brass when it hits the fan, but I will not mosey to a call when the public truly needs help. Also, I'll be damned if I will disregard why I do this job, because folks downtown don't have a clue what policing is about.

Will they try and hang my @$$, you bet, but then again that's what they do best. I do policing better. I have ethics, they don't.

I don't try to save the world, but do what I'm sworn to do.

[Average Joe]

I've been here a looooong time and I work the streets. I run x18 almost daily, when I think I am justified. I WILL deal with brass when it hits the fan, but I will not mosey to a call when the public truly needs help. Also, I'll be damned if I will disregard why I do this job, because folks downtown don't have a clue what policing is about.

Will they try and hang my @$$, you bet, but then again that's what they do best. I do policing better. I have ethics, they don't.

I don't try to save the world, but do what I'm sworn to do.

And I bet they have never asked you why you were running hot. Deputies run hot every day and I seriously doubt they are all running to a 10-24.

[The Nitely Blog]

It would seem to me that the current driving and responding to calls policies that are in place now are to limit civil liability issues that may arise against the office from a deputies driving skills or lack thereof. I know I have spoken with old co-workers who are still on the job that have told me that if a deputy drives their vehicle over 20mph over the speed limit that there GPS information is automatically sent downtown and they are called on the carpet to explain why they were driving in excess of the posted speed limit. If the powers to be don't feel that the speed was justified then the deputy is disciplined to include the loss of their take home car for awhile. I also knew what the written policy was when I was working there but there was also a spoken policy that wasn't written down anyplace but you knew if you violated either you would be called on it and face some repercussions. You current guys and gals correct me if I am wrong.

That said, looking into my crystal ball I can see a civil attorney who will probably be hired by the victims family in this incident. I foresee this attorney and maybe even the news media if they can ever get past their love of the current sheriff, submit an public information request for all the GPS information of units logged on this day to include all zone cars, off duty jobs units, or just some deputy headed to or from their home from one of those. I can foresee this request asking for all the units location at the time the call was voiced, their directions of travel as the call was being updated, and their speeds in response to the call for the units on the way. I can also see in my crystal ball a request by this same attorney for all of the digital traffic relating to this incident as well as all voice traffic recordings. I may be wrong but based on what is found in these information request I could foresee a civil case being filed against the HCSO by the victims family.

Not to detract from the topic of this thread but one thing I have noticed over the past year or so when I have been in the area visiting is that there seems to be less marked units out and about driving around. I can drive all day all over the east side of the county (sorry west side but I don't go over your way) and maybe see one or two marked units the entire time. Are you all really that short staffed these days? This may also have something to do with the response to this incident. Just sayin'.

It would seem to me that the current driving and responding to calls policies that are in place now are to limit civil liability issues that may arise against the office from a deputies driving skills or lack thereof. I know I have spoken with old co-workers who are still on the job that have told me that if a deputy drives their vehicle over 20mph over the speed limit that there GPS information is automatically sent downtown and they are called on the carpet to explain why they were driving in excess of the posted speed limit. If the powers to be don't feel that the speed was justified then the deputy is disciplined to include the loss of their take home car for awhile. I also knew what the written policy was when I was working there but there was also a spoken policy that wasn't written down anyplace but you knew if you violated either you would be called on it and face some repercussions. You current guys and gals correct me if I am wrong.

That said, looking into my crystal ball I can see a civil attorney who will probably be hired by the victims family in this incident. I foresee this attorney and maybe even the news media if they can ever get past their love of the current sheriff, submit an public information request for all the GPS information of units logged on this day to include all zone cars, off duty jobs units, or just some deputy headed to or from their home from one of those. I can foresee this request asking for all the units location at the time the call was voiced, their directions of travel as the call was being updated, and their speeds in response to the call for the units on the way. I can also see in my crystal ball a request by this same attorney for all of the digital traffic relating to this incident as well as all voice traffic recordings. I may be wrong but based on what is found in these information request I could foresee a civil case being filed against the HCSO by the victims family.

Not to detract from the topic of this thread but one thing I have noticed over the past year or so when I have been in the area visiting is that there seems to be less marked units out and about driving around. I can drive all day all over the east side of the county (sorry west side but I don't go over your way) and maybe see one or two marked units the entire time. Are you all really that short staffed these days? This may also have something to do with the response to this incident. Just sayin'.

I believe the comment regarding automatic flagging of our GPS at 20 MPH over is one of the scare tactics they tried to employ. To my knowledge and the knowledge of people who claim to know for sure, there is nothing that can remotely send your GPS information to anyone, they have to actually pull it from your computer. The "20 MPH" rule came about as one of those "rumor mill"/ unwritten policies, where we were told there is no reason to ever exceed 20 MPH over the speed limit. Apparently they don't realize that on certain roads, if I run 20 MPH over with lights and sirens it is very likely I will be going with the flow of traffic, especially on the interstate. Now I could be wrong about this, but let me put it this way: I exceed 20 MPH over about every single shift and nothing has ever been said to me (knock on wood).

As for your final comments... we are dangerously short staffed. Every squad in my district is it bare minimum staffing levels. By bare minimum, I mean if we lose one single deputy we will be below the required level of staffing mandated by the state. This means that every single night when one, two, three, or even four deputies are on vacation, sick, leave for training, etc... we are below minimum mandatory staffing. The 1.5 deputies per 1000 citizens (or whatever the number truly is)... we aren't even close to that for actual bodies on the street. The other day there were only four zone cars covering all of Kilo (south of Gibsonton Drive to Manatee County, Tampa Bay east to Polk) during day shift. Last week on night shift I counted 13 calls holding in Juliet with no x8 cars... Imagine if another interstate shooting was voiced and all you heard were crickets on the radio.

Major Hartley gripes constantly about the rising crime rate and is always asking what we are doing to solve the problem. Our burglaries are constantly going up unless we re-write them as thefts to pad the stats... yes, that's how our crime rate magically drops 10-15% per year. Title your report with "ABC Crime" to not take a UCR hit, but put "XYZ Crime" statute on the CRA if you make the arrest... I'm not the only one in the last year that has been griped at for writing a Burglary with Battery... they said it should be simple battery and trespass so we don't take the UCR hit. Sorry, my job is to charge the crime that happened and not what the command staff deems is appropriate enough for a UCR hit.

I came through the SOT program and I totally support the high level of selectivity and training requirements, but something has to give. They need to hire some pre-certs and put them through the two week SOT and a condensed module, but skip the academy. This would help us get more bodies on the street... otherwise we aren't even putting enough new deputies on the street to cover the ones leaving. And don't even get me started on how frustrating it is to wait 20 minutes for a x94... and they wonder why I speed.

I also don't believe a citizen needs to wait 20-25 minutes for a deputy to respond while their husband is beating their a**... but we don't speed to domestics. That will change when we show up and find a Sig 7 who called 911 begging for a deputy... but then again that happened on I-4.

I love this job and I love this agency, don't get me wrong. I'm proud to put on the uniform every day and I enjoy going to work every single day. My comments are a result of the pride I take in my job and in HCSO, and I sincerely hope some of these things change around here. Until then, I'm going to run x18 when I think I need to and I'll be happy to answer to the Chief for it. I won't compromise my sworn oath, values, and ethics by purposely driving slow when a citizen needs an emergency response. If they don't like it, then don't give me a car with emergency equipment that I'm not allowed to use.

[Average Joe]

Which is why I call BS to the "rumors" of this policy. But then there are many who out of fear refuse to take the brass on. It is because of this mentality that you no longer have a union.

When you know you are in the right stand up and be heard. You may be surprised as to the outcome.

And this is the firsts time I have ever heard of a State mandate to the numbers of deputies the Office must have. There has been many times when I worked a 7 zone squad with only 4 zones filled, and one of those was a corporal who would not take report calls.