food for thought

Why is tpd still carrying 9mm and not allowed to carry anything larger. We are one of the few agencies in Florida still carrying them. Our counter parts (hcso) can carry up to 45 aswell as temple terrace, and by the way TRT and K9 are getting new firearms issued to them by a Govt. grant, guess you patrol officers dont need them. Guess the PBA is to busy with HCSO to put that in our next contract.

for the same reason Travis got fired... public immage. Could you immagine the outcry from the civil libitarians... if we went to a bigger gun. The admin. does not care. it is not there a$$ going out there every day.

It is the same reason they told us to run into a school shooting like columbine if/when it happens here. if the chief has 2-3 dead cops he can say .. well we tried to save the children...but look... we have 3 dead cops... see. How many years did it take to get carbines here... and still how many do we have... why not have trt ofcrs on the street 24-7 to respond.. they could be out answering calls then respond if necessary..

Why? Public immage... Personally, I want a 40cal. Glock will do just fine. tks

for the same reason Travis got fired... public immage. Could you immagine the outcry from the civil libitarians... if we went to a bigger gun. The admin. does not care. it is not there a$$ going out there every day.

It is the same reason they told us to run into a school shooting like columbine if/when it happens here. if the chief has 2-3 dead cops he can say .. well we tried to save the children...but look... we have 3 dead cops... see. How many years did it take to get carbines here... and still how many do we have... why not have trt ofcrs on the street 24-7 to respond.. they could be out answering calls then respond if necessary..

Why? Public immage... Personally, I want a 40cal. Glock will do just fine. tks


I disagree big time that the reason for responding to an "active shooter" situation in a school has anything to do with public image.

The after action studies of the Columbine shootings concluded that waiting to assemble a specialty team in that kind of situation was not the best response. After Columbine HCSO immediately changed tactics for "active shooter" situations, not only in schools but also in other hostage scenarios. This is not about public image; it is about responsible police work.

As an "old timer" I can assure you that in my younger days it would have been considered cowardly to sit on a perimeter waiting for a specialty team when active shooting was going on inside a school!

With regard to your desire for a more powerful handgun caliber, I have no problem with you shooting whatever you can shoot accurately. But, what about those in your agency who can't handle something larger than a 9mm? Do you propose becoming a multi-caliber agency, like HCSO? This makes ammo supply for training, etc. more cumbersome. Of course it can be done. I'm just wondering what you're proposing.

I completely understand you post, I have no problem doing my job when properly trained and equipped. Having a 9mm vs an assault rifle is suicide. We are behind the curve in an active shooter situation as it is given the fact that we are in a reactionary mode in the first place so the least you could do would be to give me the proper training/ equipment. I never said that we/ I would wait outside while an active shooting was going on. I understand my duty and would carry out my oath. I take it seriously, but also feel it is irresponsible for the admin. to recognize a threat and have as poor as a response to it as we have.

With your argument there would be no need for trt at all. You could say there response time is too slow for anything and .. next the training does not matter either. If you have enough trt officers on the street at all times I think the response time would be reasonable and that you might actually save some civilian and police lives.

To think it is not political you are kidding yourself. It makes big news if and when an agency changes caliber. HCSO has always been more open with the different calibers even when I worked there.

I completely understand you post, I have no problem doing my job when properly trained and equipped. Having a 9mm vs an assault rifle is suicide. We are behind the curve in an active shooter situation as it is given the fact that we are in a reactionary mode in the first place so the least you could do would be to give me the proper training/ equipment. I never said that we/ I would wait outside while an active shooting was going on. I understand my duty and would carry out my oath. I take it seriously, but also feel it is irresponsible for the admin. to recognize a threat and have as poor as a response to it as we have.

With your argument there would be no need for trt at all. You could say there response time is too slow for anything and .. next the training does not matter either. If you have enough trt officers on the street at all times I think the response time would be reasonable and that you might actually save some civilian and police lives.

To think it is not political you are kidding yourself. It makes big news if and when an agency changes caliber. HCSO has always been more open with the different calibers even when I worked there.


Three quick responses:

1. Upgrading your handgun caliber to .40, or anything else does not improve your odds against a rifle. If a 9mm handgun vs a rifle is suicide, so is a .40 handgun against a rifle.

It's not their handguns that make HCSO better prepared for an active shooter situation, it's the fact that the deputies are permitted to possess rifles also.

2. I see nothing in my original post that would justify saying that my "argument" would lead one to think that I advocated having no TRT at all. The only case in which I said HCSO does not wait for a speciality team is "Active Shooter." Most call outs are not of this nature.

And it is a real stretch to leap further and say that I indicated that training does not matter. I simply didn't say anything remotely like that.

3. Finally, I did not address the "politics" of changing handgun calibers. I only said that the HCSO decision to move immediately on Active Shooter situations was because doing so was one of the "lessons learned" in the after action studies of the Columbine shootings.

----------

You did not respond to any of my questions in my final paragraph. Here is that paragraph again:

With regard to your desire for a more powerful handgun caliber, I have no problem with you shooting whatever you can shoot accurately. But, what about those in your agency who can't handle something larger than a 9mm? Do you propose becoming a multi-caliber agency, like HCSO? This makes ammo supply for training, etc. more cumbersome. Of course it can be done. I'm just wondering what you're proposing.

first off trt and k9 are getting new handguns...new 9mm handguns.... nothing differnt than the patrol officers.

the other is our patrol officers can have rifels now just like hcso. so i don't know what your problem is. hcso has to buy there own long guns just like us if they want them and the handguns trt are carring now have had about 15,000 rounds put down the barrel and need replacing.

I do side with the fact that this department needs to do more training. the larger handgun issue is both news media and budget. the news would be all over it and the the cost of .40 cal or .45 cal is a bit more money. do you think with the budget problems the department has now they would put out more money for ammo. the department is having problems getting new cars to replace 1998 crown vics.

but hey down town looks really nice with all that new brick in the road and the arty farty stuff :evil:

I like my job, get paid really well.....and frankly I couldn't care less what year my car is if the city pays the 3 bucks a gallon for me to drive to upper Pasco County. But that is just me.
I know...I know......I am on this list.....next sgt.....bla bla bla

I went out and picked up my own AR-15. I feel better knowing it is in the trunk if needed. The two day class gave the basics on using the weapon.

If they would let me carry a 40 or 45 Glock, I would go get one today. I do understand the budget problems behind buying around 1000 of them.

There are no budget problems. Glock will take back all the 9mm pistols with all magazines and trade them for new .40 or .45 cal. They offerred the same thing to St.Pete Pd a few years back. St.Pete didn't want to give back all the high cap mags out of fear they would be sold to civilians on the street. They later traded in the 9mm (which were 13years old) for a much nicer .40. No new holsters or mag pouches needed. Its the cheapest way to go, .45 would require new holsters and possibly new mag pouches.

Didn't they allow AR-15's first?? Maybe they are taking over as the bay area Law Enforcement trend setters. It's sad that TPD has fell behind. Their radios are better too, can talk to every agency in the county without worthless patches through dispatch.
Tampa makes enough on high taxes and tourism. Spend it a lil better!!

Not only that, but St Pete, the least cop friendly dept in the least cop friendly city, with the least cop friendly newspaper, changed to the glock .40 5 years ago without a peep from the St Pete Times. I guess the argument about the media jumping on a caliber change is not valid either.

And as far as the question "what about people in the dept that can't handle a larger caliber," they can't handle what we have now anyway, so train them or get rid of them, they're no help to any of us. This job has physical demands and should have physical requirements.

I can shoot, I'd like a round that has stopping power. Anybody hear about the 2 armed 23 suspects in d2 a few weeks ago? The store clerk shot them both with his 9mm and nobody even knew they were shot til an hour after they were arrested (after running several blocks) and brought back to the district. Great bullet.

OK, now a 9mm isn't enough. A little terget prctice you can be as deadly with a 9 as a 40 or a 45 cal. One thing to consider is weight. A fully loaded 45 w/2 mags weighs a hell of alot, so a 9mm is really a blessing. If you can't hit what you're aiming at, then what difference does it make. Try working the streets with a 6 shot 38 with dump pouches, or under cover with a 5 shot snub nose 38. No shotguns, 9mm were TRT issue only, no K-9's and 28 calls a night was common. God I miss that action. I now carry a 45, and it's heavy.

Since "active shooter" has come into play the City and Dept needs to step up to the plate and give us the equipment we need to do this "job". It is unreasonable to send a person into a "active shooter" situtation (rifle vs handgun) without the equipment needed to do the job. We should not have to purchase our own rifles to do the job required by law. The city needs to purchase the rifles and the deptment needs to demand the purchase.

Maybe the PBA should have been looking into this, nay, they to busy out of town on PBA business.

Buy a rifle like Billy Lamb and you'll be okay. I'm okay with my 9mm. No rifle or shotgun for me!

Buy a rifle like Billy Lamb and you'll be okay. I'm okay with my 9mm. No rifle or shotgun for me!


I'm sorry to hear that you feel that way!

In my long career I was involved in four gunfights. In two of them I shot the bad guy with a shotgun; in one I shot the bad guy with a carbine; in one I was prepared to shoot the bad guy with a pistol but my partner got there quicker with a shotgun.

If you know you are going into an armed confrontation, your pistol is your LAST resort. Given the time to arm yourself properly you should have a rifle or shotgun.

THAT is the voice of experience.

:wink: