The Handcuffing topic again.

I performed one aspect of my job last night. I had to handcuff someone in the field. Why do I feel like I have done something wrong? I had Law Enforcement with me as procedure calls for. I did not want Law Enforcement coming to the door with me, as to not scare the offender from opening his door. The offender walked out of the front door and I handcuffed him immediately. He was a violent offender and before he could debate anything with me, I handcuffed him for my safety. Law enforcement then approached the area. I know I am not a cop, I am a probation officer, why should we have to feel bad when doing an essential part of our job. I really do not understand?

Where are you chanels 8,9,10, and 13. Do you not care about our safety? You only care when one of our offenders has a high profile and then you slam us to the ground. I think you need to continue on with this story, like you did a couple of months ago. A good title for the story would be "Department Liability vs. Officer Safety" .

Bottom line, a probation officer should not feel guilty about handcuffing an offender for his own safety.

P.S. I am not a wannabe cop but a Probation Officer and handcuffing is one aspect of our job.

[Merlin]

I performed one aspect of my job last night. I had to handcuff someone in the field. Why do I feel like I have done something wrong? I had Law Enforcement with me as procedure calls for. I did not want Law Enforcement coming to the door with me, as to not scare the offender from opening his door. The offender walked out of the front door and I handcuffed him immediately. He was a violent offender and before he could debate anything with me, I handcuffed him for my safety. Law enforcement then approached the area. I know I am not a cop, I am a probation officer, why should we have to feel bad when doing an essential part of our job. I really do not understand?

Where are you chanels 8,9,10, and 13. Do you not care about our safety? You only care when one of our offenders has a high profile and then you slam us to the ground. I think you need to continue on with this story, like you did a couple of months ago. A good title for the story would be "Department Liability vs. Officer Safety" .

Bottom line, a probation officer should not feel guilty about handcuffing an offender for his own safety.

P.S. I am not a wannabe cop but a Probation Officer and handcuffing is one aspect of our job.

What's the issue? Just do your job and shut the hell up. If I felt guilty about any aspect of my job I'd quit. If you do the right thing at the right time you wouldn't be second guessing yourself. People are blowing this totally out of proportion IMHO.

[mystikwarrior]

I'm with Merlin. Why do you feel guilty about cuffing the guy?
Will you also feel guilty testifying at his VOP hearing because what you say may send him to prison for 20 years?
I didn't think so.
If it bothers you that much, maybe you do need a career change. But in the greater scheme of things you need to look at WHY he was being violated and see if you could have done anything different in supervising him that may have prevented it. The best way to avoid cuffing them is to make sure they don't do anything so you have to. Everybody wins that way. You, him and society.

[Merlin]

I'm with Merlin. Why do you feel guilty about cuffing the guy?
Will you also feel guilty testifying at his VOP hearing because what you say may send him to prison for 20 years?
I didn't think so.
If it bothers you that much, maybe you do need a career change. But in the greater scheme of things you need to look at WHY he was being violated and see if you could have done anything different in supervising him that may have prevented it. The best way to avoid cuffing them is to make sure they don't do anything so you have to. Everybody wins that way. You, him and society.

You hit the nail on the head with this post. God only knows why a PO would get hung up on the cuffing issue. Whether or not I cuff or someone else cuffs is of little concern since it takes a minute or two out of my very busy day with MUCH higher priorities to deal with. With clearer focus on completing the conditions of supervision and providing strict enough supervision in the community to prevent crimes we'd obviously spend less time cuffing (not that it takes much time to cuff, but VOPs and Court hearings are time consuming and unnecessary if we motivate the offenders to do the right stuff). There's more than one way to skin a cat as they say.

don't you think it would be a lot easier for everybody including the probationer/parolee to stay on the straight and narrow if the state would pick one set of laws and leave it alone for at least 1 year.

[mystikwarrior]

if the state would pick one set of laws and leave it alone for at least 1 year.
The Legislative session is over. The laws you have now are it for at least 10 months. Run with them. Just don't pull the typical DOC trick of "we don't like that law so we'll make up our own".

don't you think it would be a lot easier for everybody including the probationer/parolee to stay on the straight and narrow if the state would pick one set of laws and leave it alone for at least 1 year.

They need to make a statewide 2500 foot rule on pedophiles to get them out in the coutry away from most of the children. But now that cant happen until the next session I guess.

why r u guys blasting him? officers are scared to leave an ofoa out of date let alone have the possibility of having to write a use of force report. it is a legitimate post. some supervisors would probably react negatively even if all went well like in this instance. Heaven forbid what would happen to the cpo if the offender was injured during an encounter like that. typically i have found with doc you are basically damned no matter what you do.

why r u guys blasting him? officers are scared to leave an ofoa out of date let alone have the possibility of having to write a use of force report. it is a legitimate post. some supervisors would probably react negatively even if all went well like in this instance. Heaven forbid what would happen to the cpo if the offender was injured during an encounter like that. typically i have found with doc you are basically damned no matter what you do.

That is true to a certain point. Most people only get paper on them however which means nothing really. If you fight any suspension or punishment on that level usually the officer wins and it gets reversed or thrown out with a very few exceptions.

yeah ok..but who wants to go through all that trouble and then you are looked at like a trouble maker. no thanks. field work is bad enough if you think about it. all we have been is lucky. we have no radio, no one knows exactly where we are in real time like police. and alot cpos still dont carry. i think what this guy did was ballsy. alot of cpos would not be the one to slap cuffs on an offender. not ballsy in a bad way mind you.

All I meant by my post....maybe I did not explain it right. AT least in my office (filled with social worker types) you are made to feel guilty or like you are a cowboy for doing your job in the manner I explained above. Sometimes I think DOC and my supervisors would really rather me be in an usnsafe condition then just be proactive and aggressive when making an arrest. For the offender that I cuffed last week, he was on probation for battery and some firearms stuff. He violated his probation because he had just battered his girlfriend the night before and bonded out of jail before we could get to him and do a pc at the jail. When we arrived at his house we had deputies with us but I wanted the deputies to stand to the side and not be seen by the offender when knocking on the door. The offender answered the door, I had him walk out and he was handcuffed while deputies approached from about 30 feet away from both sides of the house. I was not about to stand with the offender who had such a violent past (he probabley knew when we came to the door he was getting arrested) and wait for deputies to come over and cuff him. It was imperative from a safety stand point that he be cuffed. Also, it looks really bad for DOC if I stand around and wait for deputies to cuff him in this situation.

I was justified in my use of handcuffs but the current environment at DOC does make you feel like you are doing something wrong (guilty). I really just wish they would let us do our job and allow us to be safe instead of having all of this double talk that they send us via email on a weekly basis.

that is all.

[Merlin]

All I meant by my post....maybe I did not explain it right. AT least in my office (filled with social worker types) you are made to feel guilty or like you are a cowboy for doing your job in the manner I explained above. Sometimes I think DOC and my supervisors would really rather me be in an usnsafe condition then just be proactive and aggressive when making an arrest. For the offender that I cuffed last week, he was on probation for battery and some firearms stuff. He violated his probation because he had just battered his girlfriend the night before and bonded out of jail before we could get to him and do a pc at the jail. When we arrived at his house we had deputies with us but I wanted the deputies to stand to the side and not be seen by the offender when knocking on the door. The offender answered the door, I had him walk out and he was handcuffed while deputies approached from about 30 feet away from both sides of the house. I was not about to stand with the offender who had such a violent past (he probabley knew when we came to the door he was getting arrested) and wait for deputies to come over and cuff him. It was imperative from a safety stand point that he be cuffed. Also, it looks really bad for DOC if I stand around and wait for deputies to cuff him in this situation.

I was justified in my use of handcuffs but the current environment at DOC does make you feel like you are doing something wrong (guilty). I really just wish they would let us do our job and allow us to be safe instead of having all of this double talk that they send us via email on a weekly basis.

that is all.

I understand what you are saying and I hope my earlier response did not offend you or others. My point was that I would have cuffed him also and not given it a second thought.

This reminds me of the Deltona incident. I had the experience of working with a PO who was from Deltona who never did a PC arrest, EVER! The excuse was that no one else did them.....sorry but that is by far the lamest excuse any idiotic government worker can use. We don't need idiots like that...we need folks like you who will do the right thing....but don't second guess yourself. The statute is clear.

All I meant by my post....maybe I did not explain it right. AT least in my office (filled with social worker types) you are made to feel guilty or like you are a cowboy for doing your job in the manner I explained above. Sometimes I think DOC and my supervisors would really rather me be in an usnsafe condition then just be proactive and aggressive when making an arrest. For the offender that I cuffed last week, he was on probation for battery and some firearms stuff. He violated his probation because he had just battered his girlfriend the night before and bonded out of jail before we could get to him and do a pc at the jail. When we arrived at his house we had deputies with us but I wanted the deputies to stand to the side and not be seen by the offender when knocking on the door. The offender answered the door, I had him walk out and he was handcuffed while deputies approached from about 30 feet away from both sides of the house. I was not about to stand with the offender who had such a violent past (he probabley knew when we came to the door he was getting arrested) and wait for deputies to come over and cuff him. It was imperative from a safety stand point that he be cuffed. Also, it looks really bad for DOC if I stand around and wait for deputies to cuff him in this situation.

I was justified in my use of handcuffs but the current environment at DOC does make you feel like you are doing something wrong (guilty). I really just wish they would let us do our job and allow us to be safe instead of having all of this double talk that they send us via email on a weekly basis.

that is all.

I understand what you are saying and I hope my earlier response did not offend you or others. My point was that I would have cuffed him also and not given it a second thought.

This reminds me of the Deltona incident. I had the experience of working with a PO who was from Deltona who never did a PC arrest, EVER! The excuse was that no one else did them.....sorry but that is by far the lamest excuse any idiotic government worker can use. We don't need idiots like that...we need folks like you who will do the right thing....but don't second guess yourself. The statute is clear.

You are an idiot everyone in the state knew that you didnt arrest without a warrant signed from the judge when people had a new arrest. That little vague piece in policy saying it was allowed meant nothing. DOC by net letting us do them made it clear you were not except in the rarest of circumstances like the police not wanting a murder suspect to be released. DOC was a disgrace in that whole Deltona thing especially Crosby.

a cpo should never handcuff. if you expect a problem or see a problem call law enforcement asap.

..

...

Yes your right next time I will pull out my crystal ball and tarrot cards and see into the future then I will use my secret decoder ring to silently signal law enforcement and in the 45 mins it takes for them to get there I will use the HUG-A-THUG program to keep him from exploding,,,yes you have answered it!!! YOU$%*& dumb #$%......MORON

HUG-A-THUG.
Now that's funny!! :lol:

[mystikwarrior]

a cpo should never handcuff. if you expect a problem or see a problem call law enforcement asap.
Why not? Do you think POs aren't as qualified?

To mergatroid shiclegruber:
All I can say is that you should not let the social workers make you feel guilty. I'll be the first to holler if there is excessive force by a PO or a LEO. But you handled it properly and avoided a potentially tragic situation.

face the facts we are cpo's leave the tough guy stuff for the pro's :lol: they make more and are trained more and basically the real deal ie" leo's. :shock:

[mystikwarrior]

face the facts we are cpo's leave the tough guy stuff for the pro's
So you have no problem making $10,000 a year less than a LEO since he's a pro and you aren't?
What's with all the whining from POs about how they should get pay equal to a LEO if the LEO is a pro and more highly-trained?

face the facts we are cpo's leave the tough guy stuff for the pro's
So you have no problem making $10,000 a year less than a LEO since he's a pro and you aren't?
What's with all the whining from POs about how they should get pay equal to a LEO if the LEO is a pro and more highly-trained?

Well one thing is for certain - I have never heard a former CPO say being a LEO was worse than being a CPO work wise, they seem to always say its easier overall and less of a headache. The only complaint is usually how they have to deal with citizens who run their mouth and try to disrespect them for no legit reason which they didnt deal with as much as a CPO. Also federal probation officers usually make more than LEO's with years of experience and the former state ones say it is no more work on average than being a state CPO....

[mystikwarrior]

So you determine salary level on the volume and difficulty of the work done?
LEOs do less work and easier work.
POs do more work and it's harder.
Therefore POs should be paid more than LEOs.
Right?
That means the guy out there with a shovel digging ditches, who is doing FAR more 'work' that is much harder than pushing paper around should be knocking down $100K a year. Right?

So you determine salary level on the volume and difficulty of the work done?
LEOs do less work and easier work.
POs do more work and it's harder.
Therefore POs should be paid more than LEOs.
Right?
That means the guy out there with a shovel digging ditches, who is doing FAR more 'work' that is much harder than pushing paper around should be knocking down $100K a year. Right?

You have to look at who is qualified to do the work also and how easy it is to replace someone. I am just stating what PO's that left have said. Evidently the Feds think it deserves higher pay due to the work of the job and requirements to be hired. The federal courts pay PO's more than almost all fed cops make. We are underpaid because it is the state writing our check if the locals employed us we would make the same as cops for being Felony PO'S...and get step raises etc.

[mystikwarrior]

I imagine every job in the Federal system pays more than a comparable State job. That's a given whether you're a PO or a janitor.
I keep thinking of a cop patrolling a beat in Liberty City. Miami Gardens. 39th Avenue in Clearwater. Northwest Jacksonville. Those guys are putting it on the line every day. They have no idea today if they will be alive tomorrow.
Then I compare that to a PO who spends more time pushing paper in an office than out on the street. And when out on the street they're driving an unmarked personal vehicle to some guy's workplace to look in on them.
And I have a hard time justifying that because both have to be certified officers they both are entitled to equal pay.
Granted that's a simplistic comparison. Field contact can at times be a dangerous venture. Not all cops work such dangerous areas. But the job has to pay according to the 'work'. Localities are by nature 'local' and can adjust salaries accordingly. A deputy in Holmes County doesn't make nearly as much as a deputy in Orange County for example. But the state is forced to set statewide salary levels. Is the state supposed to pick the highest-paying LEO jobs in the state and then go $100 a year over that?
I'm all for a 'fair' pay rate. But somebody needs to come up with a true definition of what that 'fair' pay is. Just saying that an officer with department "X" makes a certain salary doesn't cut it.

An afterthought. Florida Community College in Jacksonville offers a series of courses, 286 contact hours-worth, to train a CO to become a LEO. Not sure what training a PO already has above and beyond a CO, but it's apparent that more knowledge is required to be a LEO. Indeed, the LEO program is 760 hours while the CO program is only 530.
FCC also says the statewide average pay for a LEO is $30K with a median of $42K. What's the comparable PO rates? A trainee position pays $29K with a bump to $32K on certification and the top of the range is $50K. Along with an extra $200 a month or so for working in certain counties.
The more I look at it the more it seems that PO pay is fair.

I imagine every job in the Federal system pays more than a comparable State job. That's a given whether you're a PO or a janitor.
I keep thinking of a cop patrolling a beat in Liberty City. Miami Gardens. 39th Avenue in Clearwater. Northwest Jacksonville. Those guys are putting it on the line every day. They have no idea today if they will be alive tomorrow.
Then I compare that to a PO who spends more time pushing paper in an office than out on the street. And when out on the street they're driving an unmarked personal vehicle to some guy's workplace to look in on them.
And I have a hard time justifying that because both have to be certified officers they both are entitled to equal pay.
Granted that's a simplistic comparison. Field contact can at times be a dangerous venture. Not all cops work such dangerous areas. But the job has to pay according to the 'work'. Localities are by nature 'local' and can adjust salaries accordingly. A deputy in Holmes County doesn't make nearly as much as a deputy in Orange County for example. But the state is forced to set statewide salary levels. Is the state supposed to pick the highest-paying LEO jobs in the state and then go $100 a year over that?
I'm all for a 'fair' pay rate. But somebody needs to come up with a true definition of what that 'fair' pay is. Just saying that an officer with department "X" makes a certain salary doesn't cut it.

An afterthought. Florida Community College in Jacksonville offers a series of courses, 286 contact hours-worth, to train a CO to become a LEO. Not sure what training a PO already has above and beyond a CO, but it's apparent that more knowledge is required to be a LEO. Indeed, the LEO program is 760 hours while the CO program is only 530.
FCC also says the statewide average pay for a LEO is $30K with a median of $42K. What's the comparable PO rates? A trainee position pays $29K with a bump to $32K on certification and the top of the range is $50K. Along with an extra $200 a month or so for working in certain counties.
The more I look at it the more it seems that PO pay is fair.

My point is the feds pay their PO's usually more than their Police Officers except the FBI. LEO's in Central and South Florida make quite a bit more than CPO's after a few years on the job. PO's used to start at more than most of them but now that isnt even true in a lot of the cases. The state hasn't given much of a raise at all lately while the locals have had big salary increases. The state troopers in Florida are in the same boat DOC is lately and are falling way behind local LEO's pay also...

a cpo should never handcuff. if you expect a problem or see a problem call law enforcement asap.

Ok you get the hell kicked out of you or let the offender go an hurt the public....not me.

Remember out job is to protect the public. Personally, I think I am safere with a cuffed offender versus one who is waiting while we are playing the game.

a cpo should never handcuff. if you expect a problem or see a problem call law enforcement asap.

Ok you get the hell kicked out of you or let the offender go an hurt the public....not me.

Remember out job is to protect the public. Personally, I think I am safere with a cuffed offender versus one who is waiting while we are playing the game.

leo's do less paper work crap then us but when crap hits the faN you better bring your A GAME. WE HAVE A DESK JOB THE COPS HAVE A PATROL FUNCTION JOB AND ITS TOTALLY DIFFERENT. WE HAVE MANY THAT TRY AND LEAVE AND GET FLUSHED FROM FTO AS A COP. THE JOB AS A COP IS TRUE LAW ENFORCEMENT AT THE CORE WE ARE NOT. THE POLICE DEAL WITH EVERYTING FROM IN PROGRESS 911 CALLS TO MEDICAL EMERGECNIES AND DEALING WITH PROACTIVE SITUATIONS THEY OBSERVE. BEING A COP IS A LOT HARDER IN MANY FASHIONS SUCH AS THE STRESS OF THE CALLS, DEALING WITH THE IN PROGRESS CRIMES AND FIGHTING PEOPLE, DRIVING AT HIGH SPEEDS LISTENING TO THE RADIO/COMPUTER. OUR JOB IS HARDER WHEN IT COMES TO PAPERWORK AND CASE REVIEW CRAP. YOU CAN NEVER COMPARE WHAT WE DO WITH WHAT THE COPS DO.

YOU ALSO CAN NEVER COMPARE THE PAY. IF A POLICE DEPT PAYS LESS THEN US THAT DOES NOT MATTER. THE POLCIE DEPT WITH ALWAYS JUMP AHEAD WITH THE HIGHER PAY THEY HAVE STEPS AND SOME HAVE 6 MONTH STEPS AFTER FTO THRU COMPLETION OF PROBATION. THE LOWEST PAYING POLLICE DEPT IN FLORIDA WITH OUT PAY US AFTER A FEW YEARS IF THAT DUE TO STEP PAY AND LONGIVITY NOT TO MENTION THE OFFICER ONLY HAS TO WORK A FEW DETAILS OR OVER TIME AND THEY GOT US ANYDAY. IT DOES NOT PAY TO STRAY AT DOC IF YOU CAN DO REAL LEO WORK, WHY STAY SO YOU CAN BEAT ON YOUR CAR AND MAKE PENNIES AND DO FAT LADIES WORK BECUASE THIS IS NO LEO JOB. THE STATE COULD TAKE SPECIAL RISK AWAY AND THE PUBLIC WOULD CARE LESS. THE SMAE FOLKS THAT DID THIS JOB YEARS AGO WOULD CONTINUE DOING IT. THIS PLACE IS A ROYAL I MEAN ROYAL JOKE. :shock: :D

to cpo facts:

Then leave stupid

leo's do less paper work crap then us but when crap hits the faN you better bring your A GAME. WE HAVE A DESK JOB THE COPS HAVE A PATROL FUNCTION JOB AND ITS TOTALLY DIFFERENT. WE HAVE MANY THAT TRY AND LEAVE AND GET FLUSHED FROM FTO AS A COP. THE JOB AS A COP IS TRUE LAW ENFORCEMENT AT THE CORE WE ARE NOT. THE POLICE DEAL WITH EVERYTING FROM IN PROGRESS 911 CALLS TO MEDICAL EMERGECNIES AND DEALING WITH PROACTIVE SITUATIONS THEY OBSERVE. BEING A COP IS A LOT HARDER IN MANY FASHIONS SUCH AS THE STRESS OF THE CALLS, DEALING WITH THE IN PROGRESS CRIMES AND FIGHTING PEOPLE, DRIVING AT HIGH SPEEDS LISTENING TO THE RADIO/COMPUTER. OUR JOB IS HARDER WHEN IT COMES TO PAPERWORK AND CASE REVIEW CRAP. YOU CAN NEVER COMPARE WHAT WE DO WITH WHAT THE COPS DO.


ALL the people I know who are Cops now say it is easier than being a CPO in an office with constant turnover - they do not say it is harder. The only complaint they seem to have is not having the flexible schedule and having to deal with irate complaining citizens more than they did as a PO.