RETIRED LEOS - Next month it is for real.

[Carl Shawver]

Calling all retired Hillsborough County Sheriff's Office Law Enforcement Deputies.

On July 1st the provisions of HR-218 (Cop Concealed Carry) will go into effect in Florida with the implementation of a state firearms qualification standard for active duty LEOs.

Sheriff Gee has very graciously provided a method of having HILLSBOROUGH COUNTY SHERIFF'S OFFICE (ONLY) Retired LEOs utilize the HCSO pistol range to qualify to this standard.

Without this qualification you cannot meet the federal requirements to carry a concealed weapon under the provisions of HR-218.

For the past three months the Sheriff has set aside one day a month for retiree practice sessions at the range to get acquainted with the new course of fire.

Next month it is for real!

When the date is set I will post it on this site.

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Reminder:

1. Only Law Enforcement Deputies of HCSO can qualify under HR-218 because only LEOs in HCSO have arrest powers.

2. You will be required to have your "retired" LEO ID card in order to obtain certification that you successfully passed the firearms requirement.

3. You must provide your own firearm and ammunition.

4. You must sign a Safety waiver before you will be permitted to fire.

THIS OPPORTUNITY IS AVAILABLE TO RETIRED LEOs FROM HILLSBOROUGH COUNTY SHERIFF'S OFFICE ONLY.

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A special note from me:

DO NOT RELY ON ANYTHING I SAY OR WRITE ABOUT HR-218.

OBTAIN AND READ FOR YOURSELF THE PROVISIONS OF THE LAW, AND IF NECESSARY GET LEGAL ADVICE BEFORE TAKING ADVANTAGE OF THE PROVISIONS THAT PERMIT YOU TO CARRY A CONCEALED FIREARM.

The actual federal law is Public Law 108-277, The Law Enforcement Officer's Safety Act of 2004.

++++++++++++++++

And again, I offer special thanks to Sheriff Gee for making this opportunity available to us. He was under no obligation to do so and you will find that many other agencies are doing nothing to assist their retirees in this regard.

[Elliot Parsowith]

Hey Carl,

I plan to be at the qualification set for Aug. 11th. It is very nice of Sheriff Gee, Maj. Previtera, Dep. Corrales, and the rest of the staff for doing this. In checking with other non-HCSO retired LEOs in my area, no other agencies are doing this for their retirees.

Thanks also to Ken Schintzius, President of the HCSO Alumni Association for keeping us informed about what is going on.

[Carl Shawver]

Here are the retiree range dates for July and August:


Scheduled Dates And Times

Friday July 14 1000-1400hrs

Friday Aug. 11 1000-1400hrs


THIS IS MOST IMPORTANT!

If you intend to fire for qualification you MUST be at the firing line at 1000 hours! (Arrive at the range even earlier in order to check in and told which firing line will be used.) This is to provide for the firearms inspection and safety lecture. If you are not there for these activities you will not be permitted to fire for qualification. If you arrive later you may be able to fire for practice, but not for qualification.

The qualification firing is for retired HCSO LEOs only. Bring your HCSO issued "retired" ID card - it does not have to be issued by Sheriff Gee; retired cards from previous sheriffs are valid for HR-218 purposes.

The course of fire requires 40 rounds. Bring your own ammunition.

[Carl Shawver]

Ignoring the detested spam poster who has posted on our site and moving on, I am happy to announce that I, like many other retirees living in Florida, now have the appropriate HR-218 firearms qualification card in my pocket.

Thanks to David Gee, Jim Previtera and all the others involved in facilitating the qualification process at the HCSO range! This demonstrates to me that HCSO, and particularly the Sheriff, is supportive of the retirees.

:D

[Elliot Parsowith]

On Aug. 11th, I travelled south and qualified at the range with several other retirees and former co-workers, to comply with HR 218.

Cpl. Corrales and the rest of the training staff out there were most courteous, professional, and accomodating. Thanks to those guys, and Sheriff Gee for making it possible for retirees to qualify and use the range. Most agencies aren't doing it for their people.

Thanks also to the young guys for not making us feel like a bunch of dried up old geezers! I think we all proved we can still hit the target!

Be safe and happy! 8)

On Aug. 11th, I travelled south and qualified at the range with several other retirees and former co-workers, to comply with HR 218.

Cpl. Corrales and the rest of the training staff out there were most courteous, professional, and accomodating. Thanks to those guys, and Sheriff Gee for making it possible for retirees to qualify and use the range. Most agencies aren't doing it for their people.

Thanks also to the young guys for not making us feel like a bunch of dried up old geezers! I think we all proved we can still hit the target!

Be safe and happy! 8)

Elliot:

If your official residence of record is in Georgia, qualifying to the Florida standard for active LEOs does not cover you for HR-218.

You must qualify to the state standard for active LEOs in the state where you reside.

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?c108:5:./temp/~c108KJN8tX::

But, you probably had a nice trip so it wasn't a total waste.

:)

If your official residence of record is in Georgia, qualifying to the Florida standard for active LEOs does not cover you for HR-218.[/quote]

I guess I may have misinterpreted the info I had from the PBA newsletter and FOP website. I thought you had to have cerification from your home agency OR the state in which you reside. I just found out the GA Training Center is conducting classes for retirees too. I also have Fla and GA Concealed Firearms/ Weapons Permits so I'm okay in about 25 states anyway. I'll check into the Georgia program further.

[Carl Shawver]

If your official residence of record is in Georgia, qualifying to the Florida standard for active LEOs does not cover you for HR-218.

I guess I may have misinterpreted the info I had from the PBA newsletter and FOP website. I thought you had to have cerification from your home agency OR the state in which you reside. I just found out the GA Training Center is conducting classes for retirees too. I also have Fla and GA Concealed Firearms/ Weapons Permits so I'm okay in about 25 states anyway. I'll check into the Georgia program further.

Interestingly, the language of the law DOES indicate that it is possible to have an ID card from the agency from which you retired which indicates BOTH that you are a qualified retiree AND you have qualified to the firearms standard of the agency from which you retired.

Unfortunately, a late amendment to the law which was made in Committee by Rep. James Sensenbrenner (who was opposed to the law) ADDED to the definition of "qualified retiree" that the retiree MUST meet the firearms qualification standard for active duty police officers in the state where the retiree resides. Following the letter of the law, if you don't do this you don't meet the definition of "qualified retiree" no matter what ID card your former agency issues to you.

That means you need the "OR" identification cards specified in the law: The qualified retiree card from your agency and the firearms qualification card from the state where you reside. You might want to review this at http://thomas.loc.gov/

Click on "Public Laws" in the center column. Then select 108 for the 108th session of congress. Then scroll down to Public Law 277 and click on HR-218. Then scroll down to the section that defines "qualified retiree" and further down to the description of the ID cards.

You might want to verify this interpretation with Tim Richardson of the Legal Department of the National FOP at trichardson@grandlodgefop.org

I have been in e-mail contact with him regarding HR-218 for about three years and he has always been responsive and helpful.

And as you note, the Florida CCW license is now recognized in about 30 states. However, there are limitations on it that do not apply if you are relying on HR-218. For example, in Tennessee NO CCW license is valid in "a building" where alcoholic beverages are sold. Not just in the bar - in the entire building!

It's worth a little extra effort to be sure you are covered by HR-218.

Hope to see you at the next Alumni Association meeting.

[Elliot Parsowith]

Thanks for the info Carl. I'll check with the GA PSTC on their qualification for retirees just to be safe. I sure wouldn't want to violate any laws! Seems kind of goofy to me, since the authorization under HR218 is to carry nationwide, and they make you qualify in the state you live in, no matter what. Seems like the common sense thing would be to qualify in the state you reside, or if willing to travel, at your former agency. Of course we know politicians have NO common sense....most of the time.

Actually in GA, retired LEOs are permitted to carry without a permit, as long as you've been a cop for 15 years and are drawing a pension from a GA based or federal government agency. That is only valid in the state of GA though. I emailed the GA Attorney General several years ago on that, since I qualified, except for being retired from a GA agency. He was real nice but said the law was specific to only retired GA LEOS.

Hopefully I can make another alumni meeting in the next quarter or two.
Florida does look pretty good in the winter!

[Carl Shawver]

Seems kind of goofy to me, since the authorization under HR218 is to carry nationwide, and they make you qualify in the state you live in, no matter what. Seems like the common sense thing would be to qualify in the state you reside, or if willing to travel, at your former agency. Of course we know politicians have NO common sense....most of the time.



You have to know the "backstory" to appreciate what was going on. It took thirteen years to pass HR-218, simply because Rep. James Sensenbrenner (R-WI), who was Chairman of the House Judiciary Committee, opposed it. For all of those years he, as Chairman, was able to keep the bill in Committe and wouldn't let it come to the floor of the House for a vote.

And every time it was discussed in committee the minority who opposed it proposed amendments that would gut it of any meaning. One such proposed amendment was that any state legislature who didn't want the law to apply in their state could "opt out." Of course this would mean all of the New England states and the entire left coast would do that - making the law essentially useless.

The "qualify in the state where you reside to the standard of active LEOs in that state" was a Sensenbrenner amendment which looked harmless but did a lot of damage. Apparently the majority did not realize that a very large number of states, including Florida, did not have a state standard. Therefore retirees living in those states could not qualify. When that was written into the difinition of "qualified retiree" they should have removed the part about ID cards about qualifying to the standard of the agency from which you retired, but apparently no one recognized the conflict.

Active duty LEOs could qualify because, unlike retirees, they could simply qualify to the standard (if any) of their agency.

A large number of the states which had no standard have now established one in order to facilitate letting retirees meet the standard of HR-218. Some still resist.

When Sensenbrenner finally yielded to enormous political pressure and let HR-218 be brought to the House for a vote, he presented the bill in person and the first thing he said was that he opposed the bill. As a little insight, his home state (Wisconsin) is one of the few that has no provision for anyone to have a concealed carry license, and many Wisconsin police agencies do not permit their sworn officers to carry off duty.

The original bill was very simple and straightforward. Its opponents in committee did all they could to damage it in committee, both in the House and in the Sentate. Ted Kennedy is on the Senate Judiciary Committee - you should see some of the attempts he made to foil the bill! (He lost! :D )

In any event, we finally prevailed and got the law.

The FOP has been carrying on a campaign in congress to get a law passed that will help retirees in states that do not have a statewide firearms qualification standard for active duty LEOs. It would provide alternative methods of demonstrating firearms proficiency.

Guess who is leading the opposition. Yep, Rep. James Sensenbrenner! What's wrong with those folks in Wisconsin?



:?:

[Elliot Parsowith]

Hey Carl,

The GA Public Safety Training Center in Forsyth is having a qualification class for retirees, Sept. 18th, that I'll be attending. Apparently they are up on HR 218 also and I'm sure I won't be the only retired Florida cop there.

This will be the second qualification course I will have run in a little over a month, so I guess I'll be doing more shooting than most active cops. Practice makes perfect.....right?

Thanks for the info in the previous posts.

Elliot

[Carl Shawver]

Elliot:

You'll probably outscore most of the active duty shooters. Firing once a year is NOT sufficient to be proficient. It's a shame that it is so expensive and time consuming for the actives to get to the range that most offices feel constrained to limit official, on duty qualification to once a year.

It's also a shame that so many LEOs won't go to the range on "their own time" to maintain a higher level of firearms proficiency. They seem to think that if it is job related they should get paid for it.

Shame on both sides!

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h42/exagent007/soapbox.gif

When we used the TPD range off Hillsborough Ave I shot more often and enjoyed it. When it moved to its present location, it was a 53 mile ride for me, from Citrus Park, so I was also guilty of shooting only once a year. You're right, that is not enough.

Up here, 4 miles away, in the National forest, there is a clearing with a large bern used by many shooters for practice. I checked with our Sheriff and he said it is okay to shoot there. I go several times a year with some shooting buddies and we have a blast and sharpen our skills. Of course during hunting season, we don't go since the hunters wouldn't appreciate us chasing Bambi out of area.

[Carl Shawver]

Ah, yes........... it sounds like the good old days. That was when you could make a short drive into "the woods" and find a safe place to do a little "plinking," usually with a .22 pistol or rifle.

Back in the 50's there was a revetment in the area of what is now the entrance to USF where (the story was) they used to test the guns on military aircraft (when there was an airfield in the area during WW II.) That was one of the places I used to go shoot.

There was no USF back then of course. Bob Villar and I used to dove hunt around a small pond in the area which is now suitcase city.

Another good spot to shoot, believe it or not was in the "woods" at Waters and Dale Mabry!

What was really convenient when I first became a deputy was the TPD range near Armenia and Sligh. HCSO deputies were authorized to go to the range as often as they wished, but could only draw 50 rounds of ammo on any one day. I showed up more often than most folks and got to know the rangemaster, Cliff Bedingfield, pretty well and he generally gave me all the ammo I wanted when I came to shoot.

The TPD range out off of West Hillsborough was also a good range, but predictably it was forced to close down as the expensive subdivisions were constructed in the neighborhood.

I expect the day will come when people will develop the area around the HCSO range and there will be cries to close it down as well.

(Sigh.....................)

[Elliot Parsowith]

Hey guys,

Last week I qualified at a range with the Forsyth County SO in Cumming, GA. I inquired with some ranges closer to my home in Blairsville than the GA PSTC, (130 miles away) and one hooked me up with Sgt. Gregg Boyer, the training coordinator for FCSO. Super guy and he gave me a warm welcome, even tho I was the only retiree among 20 of their active deputies shooting that day.

For those retirees from HCSO (or elsewhere) now living in Georgia, here's how it works:

The GA Peace Officer Standards and Training Comm, (POST), has the info on their website and a form to download. Most GA Police Firearms instructors should also have the form. The retiree fills out the top part, and the instructor the bottom, after the retiree qualifies on a course certified by POST. Each agency can submit a course of fire that POST could certify. Georgia now has a uniform course used by some agencies.

The course I shot was 40 rounds, silhouette, like that used in HCSO's discretionary course. You shoot two targets at a time, including 6 rounds from the 25 yard line, and some head shots thrown in. You need to score 32 out of 40 to qualify (80%).

After qualifying, you send in the form signed by the instructor to GA POST with a $15 money order. I received a card within a week, similar to the one HCSO issued, indicating my compliance with Title 926C and what type of weapon I qualified with.

Also included in the GA POST requirements is a short class on "Use of deadly force" required of all active and retired LEOs to comply with Georgia's laws on firearms training. As expected GA law and FL law are very similar with regards to deadly force by LEOs and civilians. It was a great refresher and experience.

Forsyth Co. SO seems like a class agency. I was invited back to shoot with them again in April. Their deputies qualify twice a year.

Be safe, ya'll.

Hey.....hope you are having fun in GA..........do they get to hear you sign at X-mas???? :P