The Solution

I keep hearing people complain that LCSO looks like a backwoods yahoo agency due to bad publicity in the media. I have the only solution.
Immediatey demote anyone with less than a bachelor degree. Threaten to fire anyone without a degree. Give them four years with yearly checkpoints to make sure they get their degrees. Anyone who falls behind in getting their degree would be put on probation. One more bad semester and theyre fired.
Immediately promote people with degrees even if that means 3 and 5 year deputies are placed in positions of supervision.
Education is the only real solution because when someone accuses LCSO of being inbred they can just look at the degrees on the wall and know the truth.

I keep hearing people complain that LCSO looks like a backwoods yahoo agency due to bad publicity in the media. I have the only solution.
Immediatey demote anyone with less than a bachelor degree. Threaten to fire anyone without a degree. Give them four years with yearly checkpoints to make sure they get their degrees. Anyone who falls behind in getting their degree would be put on probation. One more bad semester and theyre fired.
Immediately promote people with degrees even if that means 3 and 5 year deputies are placed in positions of supervision.
Education is the only real solution because when someone accuses LCSO of being inbred they can just look at the degrees on the wall and know the truth.

Well, I'm assuming you have a degree because you posted this amazing 'solution'. You have therefore given the perfect reason for not promoting on education qualifications alone. Typical idiot who just has book smarts!

Uhhh, you can do 4 years, get straight D's, and walk away with a degree. Is that someone I want leading me? No thank you!!! Is that someone you want leading you???

Interesting concept,

Unfortunately, it makes absolutely no sense. Here's why,

Higher education in the United States is extremely lacking in quality, I am sorry but it is true. For comparison, an AA or Bachelors degree is the equivalent of getting your black belt in any local dojo. You pay your money, you do your time, you get your prize.

Do you really think someone who spends four years studying Economics should be in charge of Patrol? Major Crimes? How does that even make sense?

That is of course a best case scenario, How about a Bachelors degree in psychology (one of the easiest to get) that gets you what in your book, Lieutenant over SWAT?

Sheriff Shoap was a VERY book smart Sheriff, multiple degrees including the FBI Academy, it didn't work out so well.

Former Chief Ferrante who got his Bachelor degree on the company's time, it didn't really work out for any of us.

You see the LCSO is not a business or a brokerage firm, real world experience is needed.

To state your above position lends itself to a very young, naive, sheltered, I have a four year degree and you don't elitist attitude.

Oh and for the record, yes I have a degree, and I still think it's a terribly short sighted, border line trolling post.

Interesting concept,

Unfortunately, it makes absolutely no sense. Here's why,

Higher education in the United States is extremely lacking in quality, I am sorry but it is true. For comparison, an AA or Bachelors degree is the equivalent of getting your black belt in any local dojo. You pay your money, you do your time, you get your prize.

Do you really think someone who spends four years studying Economics should be in charge of Patrol? Major Crimes? How does that even make sense?

That is of course a best case scenario, How about a Bachelors degree in psychology (one of the easiest to get) that gets you what in your book, Lieutenant over SWAT?

Sheriff Shoap was a VERY book smart Sheriff, multiple degrees including the FBI Academy, it didn't work out so well.

Former Chief Ferrante who got his Bachelor degree on the company's time, it didn't really work out for any of us.

You see the LCSO is not a business or a brokerage firm, real world experience is needed.

To state your above position lends itself to a very young, naive, sheltered, I have a four year degree and you don't elitist attitude.

Oh and for the record, yes I have a degree, and I still think it's a terribly short sighted, border line trolling post.

Elitist? Is that what we are SUPPOSED to strive for? Don't you think the tax payers of Lee County would like to be protected by an elite police force? If you need back surgery, do you want your surgery performed by an elite surgeon, or the guy who got his medical degree at Impac University? Or Hodges?

What's young and naive about wanting educated employees? Many law enforcement agencies require a minimum of two years of college before they will even look at you. Law enforcement is not a blue collar job anymore, it is a professional career field. Professionals have educations and degrees. The next thing they need to do is to get the police academy away from the local vo-tech school and align it with FGCU or Edison.

What's the problem with Ferrante getting his degree on company time? Are you suggesting that NO deputies are doing homework assignments on their MDCs while they are working or on details? If you think so, then YOU are the naive one.

Finally, a no fail way to find an uneducated dolt is to listen for the person who uses the term "book smart." If he follows it up with some thing like : "he's book smart but he has no common sense" you can pretty much guarantee that person has no more than a GED.

Elitist? Is that what we are SUPPOSED to strive for? Don't you think the tax payers of Lee County would like to be protected by an elite police force?

Finally, a no fail way to find an uneducated dolt is to listen for the person who uses the term "book smart." If he follows it up with some thing like : "he's book smart but he has no common sense" you can pretty much guarantee that person has no more than a GED.

Wunder Pro, don't sweat it, hon. You don't even qualify as "book smart". The words "elite" and "elitist/elitism" have completely different meanings.

From Merriam-Webster Online:

elit·ism
Pronunciation: \?-?l?-?ti-z?m, i-, ?-\
Function: noun
Date: 1947
1: leadership or rule by an elite
2: the selectivity of the elite ; especially : snobbery <elitism in choosing new members>
3: consciousness of being or belonging to an elite
— elit·ist \-?l?-tist\ noun or adjective

elite
Pronunciation: \?-?l?t, i-, ?-\
Function: noun
Etymology: French élite, from Old French eslite, from feminine of eslit, past participle of eslire to choose, from Latin eligere
Date: 1823
1 asingular or plural in construction : the choice part : cream <the elite of the entertainment world> bsingular or plural in construction : the best of a class <superachievers who dominate the computer elite — Marilyn Chase> csingular or plural in construction : the socially superior part of society <how the elite live — A P World> <how the French-speaking elite…was changing — Economist> d: a group of persons who by virtue of position or education exercise much power or influence <members of the ruling elite> <the intellectual elites of the country> e: a member of such an elite —usually used in plural <the elites …, pursuing their studies in Europe — Robert Wernick>
2: a typewriter type providing 12 characters to the linear inch
— elite adjective

Elite - yes.
Elitist - no.

That's the point I do believe Westman was trying to convey. You are unfortunately an educated dolt and have proven Westman's point single handedly.

You cant find people to work in the jail now. So let get college grads

[quote="Not the solution by Westman":3l7adncv]Interesting concept,

Unfortunately, it makes absolutely no sense. Here's why,

Higher education in the United States is extremely lacking in quality, I am sorry but it is true. For comparison, an AA or Bachelors degree is the equivalent of getting your black belt in any local dojo. You pay your money, you do your time, you get your prize.

Do you really think someone who spends four years studying Economics should be in charge of Patrol? Major Crimes? How does that even make sense?

That is of course a best case scenario, How about a Bachelors degree in psychology (one of the easiest to get) that gets you what in your book, Lieutenant over SWAT?

Sheriff Shoap was a VERY book smart Sheriff, multiple degrees including the FBI Academy, it didn't work out so well.

Former Chief Ferrante who got his Bachelor degree on the company's time, it didn't really work out for any of us.

You see the LCSO is not a business or a brokerage firm, real world experience is needed.

To state your above position lends itself to a very young, naive, sheltered, I have a four year degree and you don't elitist attitude.

Oh and for the record, yes I have a degree, and I still think it's a terribly short sighted, border line trolling post.

Elitist? Is that what we are SUPPOSED to strive for? Don't you think the tax payers of Lee County would like to be protected by an elite police force? If you need back surgery, do you want your surgery performed by an elite surgeon, or the guy who got his medical degree at Impac University? Or Hodges?

What's young and naive about wanting educated employees? Many law enforcement agencies require a minimum of two years of college before they will even look at you. Law enforcement is not a blue collar job anymore, it is a professional career field. Professionals have educations and degrees. The next thing they need to do is to get the police academy away from the local vo-tech school and align it with FGCU or Edison.

What's the problem with Ferrante getting his degree on company time? Are you suggesting that NO deputies are doing homework assignments on their MDCs while they are working or on details? If you think so, then YOU are the naive one.

Finally, a no fail way to find an uneducated dolt is to listen for the person who uses the term "book smart." If he follows it up with some thing like : "he's book smart but he has no common sense" you can pretty much guarantee that person has no more than a GED.[/quote:3l7adncv]

Wow,

O.K. You're correct, you personify "ELITE" Law Enforcement, I stand corrected.

Uneducated dolt? Touche' good man touche'

" you can pretty much guarantee that person has no more than a GED." Son, you place a lot of importance on that diploma. Thank you for proving my point.

Not that you have been on the force long enough to take the Sergeant's exam,(If you had you wouldn't post such nonsense) but Blessed Baby Jesus help us when you do, or more to the point, I have future sympathy for anyone under your command.

Oh, and please state your formal education my summa cum laude friend, I'm sure all of us uneducated kind will be very impressed.

[quote="Wunder Pro":2np57lzc][quote="Not the solution by Westman":2np57lzc]Interesting concept,

Unfortunately, it makes absolutely no sense. Here's why,

Higher education in the United States is extremely lacking in quality, I am sorry but it is true. For comparison, an AA or Bachelors degree is the equivalent of getting your black belt in any local dojo. You pay your money, you do your time, you get your prize.

Do you really think someone who spends four years studying Economics should be in charge of Patrol? Major Crimes? How does that even make sense?

That is of course a best case scenario, How about a Bachelors degree in psychology (one of the easiest to get) that gets you what in your book, Lieutenant over SWAT?

Sheriff Shoap was a VERY book smart Sheriff, multiple degrees including the FBI Academy, it didn't work out so well.

Former Chief Ferrante who got his Bachelor degree on the company's time, it didn't really work out for any of us.

You see the LCSO is not a business or a brokerage firm, real world experience is needed.

To state your above position lends itself to a very young, naive, sheltered, I have a four year degree and you don't elitist attitude.

Oh and for the record, yes I have a degree, and I still think it's a terribly short sighted, border line trolling post.

Elitist? Is that what we are SUPPOSED to strive for? Don't you think the tax payers of Lee County would like to be protected by an elite police force? If you need back surgery, do you want your surgery performed by an elite surgeon, or the guy who got his medical degree at Impac University? Or Hodges?

What's young and naive about wanting educated employees? Many law enforcement agencies require a minimum of two years of college before they will even look at you. Law enforcement is not a blue collar job anymore, it is a professional career field. Professionals have educations and degrees. The next thing they need to do is to get the police academy away from the local vo-tech school and align it with FGCU or Edison.

What's the problem with Ferrante getting his degree on company time? Are you suggesting that NO deputies are doing homework assignments on their MDCs while they are working or on details? If you think so, then YOU are the naive one.

Finally, a no fail way to find an uneducated dolt is to listen for the person who uses the term "book smart." If he follows it up with some thing like : "he's book smart but he has no common sense" you can pretty much guarantee that person has no more than a GED.[/quote:2np57lzc]

Wow,

O.K. You're correct, you personify "ELITE" Law Enforcement, I stand corrected.

Uneducated dolt? Touche' good man touche'

" you can pretty much guarantee that person has no more than a GED." Son, you place a lot of importance on that diploma. Thank you for proving my point.

Not that you have been on the force long enough to take the Sergeant's exam,(If you had you wouldn't post such nonsense) but Blessed Baby Jesus help us when you do, or more to the point, I have future sympathy for anyone under your command.

Oh, and please state your formal education my summa . laude friend, I'm sure all of us uneducated kind will be very impressed.[/quote:2np57lzc]
Oh boy, guess he hit a sore spot in reference to your intellectual abilities LOL. Thou doth protest too much.
ps. BA working on a MBA.

Yeah, because you are the epitome of intellect-

You Are A Douche'

If you agree with the Original Poster ---------> You are a Neo-maxi-zoom-dweebie

A Dweeb, Geek, Spaz, Wank, Nerd or otherwise geeky type fellow who's always doing good. Often taken out of context to insult someone as of being retarded.

Of course you are the original poster as no one in their right mind would agree with him.

In conclusion

usted es un campesino ignorante

Uhhh, you can do 4 years, get straight D's, and walk away with a degree. Is that someone I want leading me? No thank you!!! Is that someone you want leading you???

No you can't. You need C's to get a diploma.

Elitist? Is that what we are SUPPOSED to strive for? Don't you think the tax payers of Lee County would like to be protected by an elite police force?

Finally, a no fail way to find an uneducated dolt is to listen for the person who uses the term "book smart." If he follows it up with some thing like : "he's book smart but he has no common sense" you can pretty much guarantee that person has no more than a GED.

Wunder Pro, don't sweat it, hon. You don't even qualify as "book smart". The words "elite" and "elitist/elitism" have completely different meanings.

From Merriam-Webster Online:

elit·ism
Pronunciation: \?-?l?-?ti-z?m, i-, ?-\
Function: noun
Date: 1947
1: leadership or rule by an elite
2: the selectivity of the elite ; especially : snobbery <elitism in choosing new members>
3: consciousness of being or belonging to an elite
— elit·ist \-?l?-tist\ noun or adjective

elite
Pronunciation: \?-?l?t, i-, ?-\
Function: noun
Etymology: French élite, from Old French eslite, from feminine of eslit, past participle of eslire to choose, from Latin eligere
Date: 1823
1 asingular or plural in construction : the choice part : cream <the elite of the entertainment world> bsingular or plural in construction : the best of a class <superachievers who dominate the computer elite — Marilyn Chase> csingular or plural in construction : the socially superior part of society <how the elite live — A P World> <how the French-speaking elite…was changing — Economist> d: a group of persons who by virtue of position or education exercise much power or influence <members of the ruling elite> <the intellectual elites of the country> e: a member of such an elite —usually used in plural <the elites …, pursuing their studies in Europe — Robert Wernick>
2: a typewriter type providing 12 characters to the linear inch
— elite adjective

Elite - yes.
Elitist - no.

That's the point I do believe Westman was trying to convey. You are unfortunately an educated dolt and have proven Westman's point single handedly.

Sugar buns, you need to learn to read the definitions you post. By your own posting we are discussing "leadership by the best in a class." That sounds pretty good, doesn't it? You might think about some education, sweetheart, because those B cups can only get you so far.

Thank you again Wunder girl,

For proving that education (well your nursing degree from Edison really doesn't count now does it?) does not make the man, or in your case, Wunder girl.

Keep hoping for that promotion though, you've obviously got what it takes. (Well on the internet anyway)

[quote="Wunder Pro":3gqv19qw]Elitist? Is that what we are SUPPOSED to strive for? Sugar buns, you need to learn to read the definitions you post. By your own posting we are discussing "leadership by the best in a class." That sounds pretty good, doesn't it? You might think about some education, sweetheart, because those B cups can only get you so far.[/quote:3gqv19qw]

Marshmallow nuts, they're D cups, and I've never had to use them to get anywhere.
YOU said "elitist", and that's commonly correlated with the "snobbery" definition I gave. ELITE is what we're supposed to strive for, not elitist. "Elitist" attitude is what's gotten us the bad name in the public and why there is no respect for us anymore. You go right on ahead and keep that up; continue the downward spiral for us. Your elitist leadership in the nitpicking among the ranks is helping greatly toward that end.

We're not better than anyone else (elitist), but we are supposed to be held to a higher standard (elite).

You and your ilk don't believe in working hard toward promotion. To even suggest a 3-5 year deputy has learned enough about law enforcement to deserve a command rank because of time spent in a classroom is standard for the Gen X "the world owes me" attitude. Unfortunately, that's been fostered by the "take home car at the end of field training". You have no idea what it's like to have to work for the perk.

Uhhh, you can do 4 years, get straight D's, and walk away with a degree. Is that someone I want leading me? No thank you!!! Is that someone you want leading you???

No you can't. You need C's to get a diploma.

OH! I stand corrected, thanks Daddy! C's are SO MUCH BETTER :roll:

Marshmallow nuts, they're D cups, and I've never had to use them to get anywhere.

Sorry about that guys, I am better than that. I almost threw up a little to have to sink to that, but seemingly - I had to to get down on his level to get his attention.

Marshmallow nuts, they're D cups, and I've never had to use them to get anywhere.

Sorry about that guys, I am better than that. I almost threw up a little to have to sink to that, but seemingly - I had to to get down on his level to get his attention.

If you were better than that you wouldn't be defending your cup size, my shallow little airhead. You know and everyone else knows that those C cups are all that's gotten you where you are today. If you had any substance you wouldn't be cheerleading for your funbags and then apologizing for it.

[quote="Wunder Pro":3zotwg4s]Elitist? Is that what we are SUPPOSED to strive for? Sugar buns, you need to learn to read the definitions you post. By your own posting we are discussing "leadership by the best in a class." That sounds pretty good, doesn't it? You might think about some education, sweetheart, because those B cups can only get you so far.

Marshmallow nuts, they're D cups, and I've never had to use them to get anywhere.
YOU said "elitist", and that's commonly correlated with the "snobbery" definition I gave. ELITE is what we're supposed to strive for, not elitist. "Elitist" attitude is what's gotten us the bad name in the public and why there is no respect for us anymore. You go right on ahead and keep that up; continue the downward spiral for us. Your elitist leadership in the nitpicking among the ranks is helping greatly toward that end.

We're not better than anyone else (elitist), but we are supposed to be held to a higher standard (elite).

You and your ilk don't believe in working hard toward promotion. To even suggest a 3-5 year deputy has learned enough about law enforcement to deserve a command rank because of time spent in a classroom is standard for the Gen X "the world owes me" attitude. Unfortunately, that's been fostered by the "take home car at the end of field training". You have no idea what it's like to have to work for the perk.[/quote:3zotwg4s]

See? This is where your GED gets you in hot water. You cut and pasted some definitions and then selected the ones you assumed I referred to. Elitist hasn't gotten us jammed up in the public eye, acting like a bunch of cornbread yahoos has. A 3 - 5 year deputy with a degree has no business holding command rank, but that same deputy IS more qualified than his academy classmate with a GED or a high school diploma (whihc is practically the same thing now). A deputy with twenty years on who has a degree is, all things equal, more qualified than a twenty year vet with no degree. Your anti-education attitude is why we accept guys being promoted from the bottom of the sergeant's list. People like you justify it by saying that the higher scoring deputies (the ones who SHOULD have been promoted) are just "good test takers". You can through "good test takers" in the bulls**t pile with "book smart".

The degree doesn't show that you're smarter, it shows that you can apply yourself to something, that you can hold yourself to a standard, that you have discipline, that you seek to be a professional in your field. This whole attitude that "my GED is just as good as your Masters Degree" and the whole Joe Six Pack versus the Elite Snobs is the kind of Republican Sarah Palin nonsense that is ruining the GOP. You, being an uneducated redneck, probably don't believe in evolution either, do you?

Do yourself a favor Daisy Duke, crack a book.

The degree doesn't show that you're smarter, it shows that you can apply yourself to something, that you can hold yourself to a standard, that you have discipline, that you seek to be a professional in your field. This whole attitude that "my GED is just as good as your Masters Degree" and the whole Joe Six Pack versus the Elite Snobs is the kind of Republican Sarah Palin nonsense that is ruining the GOP. You, being an uneducated redneck, probably don't believe in evolution either, do you?

Do yourself a favor Daisy Duke, crack a book.

YOUR degree hasn't shown anything so far except you're a smart ass, name-calling little punk. Get over yourself. A person can apply oneself, hold themself to a standard and seek to be a professional in their field with or without a freakin' degree. Your assumption that one can't proves the elitist snob point.

Liberal AND anthiest. Figures. I'm done with you.

Marshmallow nuts, they're D cups, and I've never had to use them to get anywhere.

Sorry about that guys, I am better than that. I almost threw up a little to have to sink to that, but seemingly - I had to to get down on his level to get his attention.

If you were better than that you wouldn't be defending your cup size, my shallow little airhead. You know and everyone else knows that those C cups are all that's gotten you where you are today. If you had any substance you wouldn't be cheerleading for your funbags and then apologizing for it.

First - wasn't talking to you, was talking about you.

Secondly - they ARE D's, they ARE real, and they ARE fabulous.

Wonder fag,

It takes a real man to degrade a woman over the internet, maybe if you didn't jack-off to the Ferrante brothers Newspress photos every night, while wishing your Canadian intenet girlfriend wasn't a man-you would know that.

Luckily enough for the rest of us, you are not LEO, but a sad Mall ninja; praying that Mr. Miyagi's twelve step martial arts program will stop you from getting your 130 pound sniveling ass kicked the next time you go to the movies to watch Disney films.

Stop posting on the LEO forum, wannabe mall fag.

Wonder wackjob,

How can you profess to be educated while spewing such insipid hatred towards women?

I do believe your hatred of women and their breasts speaks volumes of your own tiny "inadequacies"

Luckily you are not LEO, as I would hate to think you were protecting the citizens of Lee County, although I guess I must be careful the next time I visit the Edison Mall. What shift do you work? Food Court nights or days?

The degree doesn't show that you're smarter, it shows that you can apply yourself to something, that you can hold yourself to a standard, that you have discipline, that you seek to be a professional in your field. This whole attitude that "my GED is just as good as your Masters Degree" and the whole Joe Six Pack versus the Elite Snobs is the kind of Republican Sarah Palin nonsense that is ruining the GOP. You, being an uneducated redneck, probably don't believe in evolution either, do you?

Do yourself a favor Daisy Duke, crack a book.

YOUR degree hasn't shown anything so far except you're a smart ass, name-calling little punk. Get over yourself. A person can apply oneself, hold themself to a standard and seek to be a professional in their field with or without a freakin' degree. Your assumption that one can't proves the elitist snob point.

Liberal AND anthiest. Figures. I'm done with you.

What's an "antheist"? Do yourself a favor, Ellie Mae Clampett, spend less time on the internet and more time in a library (Google it, you'll find it is a big building with books inside).

Wonder wackjob,

What shift do you work? Food Court nights or days?


It depends on when your wife is home. Poor dear, she's really hurting for a man who knows what he's doing and packs the goods to deliver.

Dominick it is past your bedtime,

Shouldn't Charlie have tucked you in by now?

Saying that you could please a woman after all of your rhetoric, I believe someone has been watching pay per view a little to much. But at least you didn't deny you weren't LEO, so why don't you just scamper off and have you brother finger your asshole a little more.

You're both unemployed creatin smoking, height challenged, New York **** suckers. Go Wack off to a picture of Mike because that's as close as you'll ever get to the LCSO again, Oh and take weasel boy Bushong with you. Everyone knows he's still talking with you on a daily basis, better watch that work time correspondence, you never know who is watching you...

It is was it is Douche, so is Walmart hiring you little fag?

Dominick it is past your bedtime,

Shouldn't Charlie have tucked you in by now?

Saying that you could please a woman after all of your rhetoric, I believe someone has been watching pay per view a little to much. But at least you didn't deny you weren't LEO, so why don't you just scamper off and have you brother finger your *** VIRUS ALERT *** a little more.

You're both unemployed creatin smoking, height challenged, New York **** suckers. Go Wack off to a picture of Mike because that's as close as you'll ever get to the LCSO again, Oh and take weasel boy Bushong with you. Everyone knows he's still talking with you on a daily basis, better watch that work time correspondence, you never know who is watching you...

It is was it is Douche, so is Walmart hiring you little fag?

You talk shizzat about the Ferrantes because they are gone, but you were the first one on your knees when they were in charge, right? Don't be mad because your wife enjoys good, New York Italian sausage while you're out 65ing calls in your district and bad mouthing your former bosses. Just ignore that slightly salty taste you notice when you come home and kiss her.

Oh,

That's right your wife inherited money when her father died. Real men live off their wives inheritance? Hmmm....apples and apples fudge**** squarepants,

I am glad that we can finally see you posting as yourself Dom,

Bushong, you really should be asleep as well, you have to work tomorrow.

New York Fags, No I'm sorry I was part of their departure from the LCSO', so sleep well knowing you will never work in ANY Law Enforcement capacity again.

But please keep posting on these forums. it is as close as you will ever get to speaking with real law Enforcement,

L.B. you chose the wrong friends, maybe you should watch those cell phone calls to the Ferrantes during work hours, they aren't the friends you think they are.

Oh and the pending lawsuit is really very pathetic, it will only serve as a means to further enlighten the public to your crimes while serving in Office.....think well before you choose to open that door, remember your role in it as well.

Real law enforcement officers? Yea, like you are an example of a real LEO with your mature posts! Why do you resort to insults here, rather than saying it to Bushongs face? Hes still here so whats the problem? You display all this hatred for Dom but provide no reason, or valid points, for your degrading, classless, remarks! Unlike them,Im sure you have been nothing but a positive impact on this agency! :roll:

I thought I was on the Lee County Sheriff's Office message board NOT the Collier County Sheriff's Office message board, that's who you all sound like and believe me, you do NOT want to sound like CCSO. Even though I didn't particularly care for the Boys, there's no reason to speak of wives like that. That's just degrading yourself by showing who you really are....I'm not a cop nor do I work for LCSO, but come on people, at least try to be civil and take this smut somewhere else.