This would be a good time to have a union!

Here are some facts to consider about a union.

Representation:
Since 2004 the Lee County Sheriff's Office has fired approximately 200 Employees. Of those employees fired, ask yourself who was looking out for them. Wouldn't you want to be represented by an attorney ?

Here's a plausible example: Your running code to a call, a kid on a bike pulls out in front of you, the kid doesn't see your lights or hear your siren, the next thing you know the agency states you violated policy, by not asking a supervisor if you should run code to the burglary in progress. Now What? I Know that When it's my day to answer to the courts /administration, I want to be represented, I don't want to go it alone. I want someone who's looking out for me. Some else to consider, the last sheriff's had 67 lawsuits during his term, So far we're up to 381 lawsuits, do you think one of those law suits involve a lawsuit against a deputy?

Pay / Raises:
The person in charge of Human resources, instead of being replaced for hiring then firing so many people, has been rewarded by getting a change of title and a raise. Yes, that right, they did give raises out last year, except the raises didn't go to deputies they went to civilians. There are secretaries in the agency, who supervise no one, that make over 65,000 a year, while deputies risk their lives to make 36,000 a year.

Step plan/ longevity:
The pay incentive plan was suppose to cease, as per an email from the Sheriff. During the 2009 fiscal year, believe it or not, new deputies, with prior experience were paid incentives to come aboard. I'm not saying it's bad policy, but when you hire deputies at almost $60,000 a year, to work in the bailiff division. Or to drive around checking communities, when 15 year vets from the agency, don't come close to making that kind of money, I'd say there's something wrong with that. So now you have a 10, 12, 15 year deputy making $50,000 a year, Who FTOing a brand new deputy making $60,000. A step plan has to be implemented to even things out.

There's talk about the CCPD and FMPD having old equipment, but I can assure you their step increases are in their contract. They know what they'll be making next year. Who's to say anything guaranteed here. Nothing is in writing, all the specialty units will probably lose their incentives this year, "it''s the only red ink it I have" was said by a Major. The health benefits we enjoy ( $300 up front deductible per person, $1500 total annual deductible per person, per year) means we get paid an average of $10,000 less per year, when compared to Palm Beach County, Orange County, BSO, MDPD. Don't be surprised if the health benefits continue to going away. They paid in the tens of millions in claims last year, which is money that could be bargained with. Once it's taken away we won't have any bargaining chips left at the table. Last year an email circulated from HR looking at plans with Humanna (a very poor Health care provider) they found that most physicians wouldn't even except the carrier. So If you tell me, I have to pay my on health care, but now my over all best five years, have increased by $10,000, I'd take it. CCPD FMPD get 4 hours min court time, on time off. CCPD gets paid for stand by time. You wanna make yourself crazy use the news press link (provided below) to compare salaries.

http://dbease.news-press.com/dbEase/cgi ... laries2007 (http://dbease.news-press.com/dbEase/cgi-bin/search.pl?tableName=CapeSalaries2007)

They get paid more (5%) for working night shift. Both FMPD and CCPD get 13 paid holidays, in addition to vacation days, that means if it's x-mas and it's your scheduled work day you get OT for your shift. There many more benefits to having a union. Your telling me they have a better tax base? Why are we building a red sox stadium while we're having budget cuts?

Public employee relations committee (perc) only needs 30% of sworn LE to get the PBA negotiations under way ( they maybe close). Send in your blue cards and see what they have to offer. You don't commit to anything, the agency is forbidden by state statute to see who sent in the blue cards. After you send in the blue card (on the storm is coming letter) the employee will draft a contract. As a Collective unit you agree or disagree with the contract. Then there is a vote see if the contract goes. If 50% vote for the contract it gets presented to the county commissioners for approval. Rumor has it, the new county commissioner already sent an email, stating she was glad the LCSO employees were exploring their options.

Not to mention a deputy being promoted to Sergeant who wasn't on the list and another one promoted out of order because he is friends with the Sheriff's campaign manager in Alva. Plus Hillmyer gettin a bump to what the outgoing chief was making. :evil:

here's that link again: http://dbease.news-press.com/dbEase/cgi-bin/search.pl?tableName=CapeSalaries2007

Unions rock. Just look at the benefits and pay of the officers from up north. They all have unions.

Make Sure that the blue card pamphlets (Fliers say "The Storm is coming") are sent back to Tallahassee!! IF you don't have one they will get one to you. It's confidential and by state law the agency can not review who completed a blue card.

The initial blue card count indicates that The Lee County Sheriff's Office deputies are close to beginning contract talks with the union. Remember once the blue cards are signed the agency cannot take away any benefits from employees, under the Florida P.E.R.C.(public employee relations commission) Laws.

The PBA will then draft a contract at the direction of Lee County Sheriff's Office employees. If you like what the contract offers you vote for it. If you don't like the contract, you don't have to vote for it. That is why it is your contract. This is your say at the table.

Right now you don't have a say in anything about your carreer. If You're told no raises for the next three years, you will get no raises. There is no negotiating. If you're told the agency is going to pick people who are not on the sergeant's list, there's nothing you could do about it. If Your told Hummana will be your insurance carrier, there is nothing you could do about it (last year the agency was looking to go to Hummana). It was noted that a vast amount Physicians would not accept Hummana as a carrier. But the cost is cheaper for the agency. Do You think the agency will not get rid of the current insurance benefits to cut the budget? They can you don't have a contract.

With a contract You decide on your benefits, protection, and pay. This is Your contract with the Lee County Government. You need to tell them what's important for you. But first make sure everyone you know has completed their blue cards and has sent them in.

Alright,

For the two or three guys spamming Unions as the second coming, I have a question.

1.) How are all of these miracles supposed to come to pass. The money has to come from somewhere correct? You can promise us all kinds of shiny wonderfull things, but can you deliver? At best you will get a one year contract if we accepted a union. What can we expect that first year?

Lee County is laying off Fireman, but Mr. Pendergrass and his posse are going to get you what? a 3% raise? overtime on Christmas? How is he going to deliver such fantastic things...

Let's see;

The money will come from all of us losing our health benefits

Yeaah, I get to spend five to seven hundred dollars a month on Health insurance for my family, go Union!

The money will come from all of us losing our take home cars

The joy of driving to the district to switch out cars! You get a take home car right out of FTO now, good bye to that.

The money will come from and hurt the working Deputy, not admin. If you think it will come from them your kidding yourself.

Ask yourself who stands to gain from this so called partnership, the Union does, admin does, sixty fiver's do not.

Call anyone you know at FMPD. Ask them how their union is improving their lives. Ask how their administration is in bed with the union, who takes it in the end (literally)
You want union representation, enroll on your own. Anyone that tells you you can't have representation is lying to you.

Several members are lining themselves up to be "union representatives" I'm sure you know who they are. Self serving is putting it politely, they stand to gain rank through this merger, don't kid yourself on that.

I'm just one person, and this is my opinion, but beware of something that sounds to good to be true. If you sign the "blue cards" you are trading one master for many, that's it. The union is not a democracy, the union can and will promise exactly what you want to hear, but how can they deliver?

On the note of the civilians getting raises and not us, that sucks...a lot. Guess what though, the union couldn't have stopped that, they have no control over civilian funding.

On a final note (possibly a rant) what happens when Mr. Pendergrass gets in power, presents his demands to our crooked as hell councilmen and they tell him to stuff it.
We can't strike, all we can do is give up things we already have in order to get something we want. Will Mr. Pendergrass give away our hard earned perks, you bet your ass he will.

And for all of the incoming pro union members, I am one Deputy trying to point out what I see as a bad choice, prove me wrong.

I agree 100%,

Where is the reply? We need blue cards now-not!

Make no bones about it, I do talk to the FMPD guys, regardless of what they complain about they got a 6% raise in April and a 3% raise in October over the last year. Over a two year span they have received a 25% pay raise. This year they are looking at another 3% -6% raise. Marco Island and Hendry County also got raises by the PBA. What can you say about your raises? I can tell about civilian raises.

The administration has given raises to people who make over six figures. They have given raises to the legal, human resources, budget personnel, and secretaries. These are the same people who give advice on who gets the axe. Do you think they care deputies have not received a raise in three years? Oh, and remember the most recent "big raise" we did get? Do you really think management needed to split the little raise with us? Goes to show you they could have made a pass on the small raise giving deputies more, but they take what they can.

Do you really have to ask "why union... why is that the answer?" Then you tell me how you plan to fix this, you think the administration is going take care of you? Wake up, buddy they have had their chance. There are some many things that go on behind closed doors, that you have no clue about. If you only knew, I guarantee you would change your view. Do you think these problems are gonna work themselves out?

Sometimes you have to endeavor in the unknown to make things better, and I ask you not to let your fear of the unknown blind you. What's to say they won't take our health care and take homes. The admin is dying to take the health care away. Yes.. they have been toying with the idea. What are you going to do about it.. nothing? Is that's your plan..?

Alright,

For the two or three guys spamming Unions as the second coming, I have a question.

1.) How are all of these miracles supposed to come to pass. The money has to come from somewhere correct? You can promise us all kinds of shiny wonderfull things, but can you deliver? At best you will get a one year contract if we accepted a union. What can we expect that first year?

Lee County is laying off Fireman, but Mr. Pendergrass and his posse are going to get you what? a 3% raise? overtime on Christmas? How is he going to deliver such fantastic things...

Let's see;

The money will come from all of us losing our health benefits

Yeaah, I get to spend five to seven hundred dollars a month on Health insurance for my family, go Union!

The money will come from all of us losing our take home cars

The joy of driving to the district to switch out cars! You get a take home car right out of FTO now, good bye to that.

The money will come from and hurt the working Deputy, not admin. If you think it will come from them your kidding yourself.

Ask yourself who stands to gain from this so called partnership, the Union does, admin does, sixty fiver's do not.

Call anyone you know at FMPD. Ask them how their union is improving their lives. Ask how their administration is in bed with the union, who takes it in the end (literally)
You want union representation, enroll on your own. Anyone that tells you you can't have representation is lying to you.

Several members are lining themselves up to be "union representatives" I'm sure you know who they are. Self serving is putting it politely, they stand to gain rank through this merger, don't kid yourself on that.

I'm just one person, and this is my opinion, but beware of something that sounds to good to be true. If you sign the "blue cards" you are trading one master for many, that's it. The union is not a democracy, the union can and will promise exactly what you want to hear, but how can they deliver?

On the note of the civilians getting raises and not us, that sucks...a lot. Guess what though, the union couldn't have stopped that, they have no control over civilian funding.

On a final note (possibly a rant) what happens when Mr. Pendergrass gets in power, presents his demands to our crooked as hell councilmen and they tell him to stuff it.
We can't strike, all we can do is give up things we already have in order to get something we want. Will Mr. Pendergrass give away our hard earned perks, you bet your ass he will.

And for all of the incoming pro union members, I am one Deputy trying to point out what I see as a bad choice, prove me wrong.

Explain how and why you will lose your health benefits. Explain how and why you will lose your take home car.

FMPD is where they are because THEY voted for schitty contracts over the years. How do you think this works? Do you think Pendergrass dictates what we get? If he doesn't do a good job, you demand something different. if the Admin wants to take our health benefits and take home cars, you refuse to accept it and you refuse to sign that contract. If they screw us over and the election season comes along, we vote to NOT endorse that candidate. Do you think the Sheriff wants to walk into an election with the PBA endorsing the other guy???

You DON'T have to give up what you have to get what you want. Educate yourself. Why is every other police agency in the state a union agency besides us? Have you ever asked yourself that?

The union IS a Democracy because you vote to accept or decline your contract. If you lack the balls to stand up for what is right and vote in a bad contract, then you deserve what you get.

This proves my point, thank you. Because I don't currently side with the union, I need to educate myself and receive your condescending attitude, please where do I sign up!

Tell me where the money for these raises, overtime, holiday pay, is going to come from. You can't, because what I stated, was what the PBA is going to do.

I did speak to a PBA member about this, guess what, they favor us losing our health benefits to pay for this. You need to educate yourself before you regurgitate what you've been told by rumor spreading sock puppets.

So once again, you want us to sign your card, don't promise me something without being able to tell me how you're going to do it. You see, that's how a lot of people get in power in the first place. How do you think the Country is going right now? What were the Presidents promises to us? Has he delivered, and how is he supposed to do all these great things he promised?

Yes, your fear tactic of civilian raises is truth, but the fact is your PBA is powerless to stop that no matter what you believe. Stating that every other Agency has a Union, is a feeble attempt of fear mongering . Ask Broward how they like their Union, for that matter ask them what their tax base is compared to ours. Not even comparable, but I guess I just need to educate myself some more huh?

Stating that FMPD officers that don't like the Union and want them out are whiners is EXACTLY how the PBA works. If you want them out, or disagree with their self empowering decisions, you are branded a heretic and a coward and driven into a corner, just as you are doing to them by your statements. How is ruling by fear and intimidation, condemnation and accusations any different from our current situation; that I agree is broken.

Do I have the answer as to how to fix our current situation, no I do not. Do I think we should form a union for the sake of change and the hope of better things, no I do not. You have no answers, no plan, just fear and intimidation. We have enough of that already thank you.

It boils down to this simply, Show me the money!. Don't speak in double speak and hypotheticals, Get Mr. Pendergrass to spell out how he is going to do these things, a lot of people would like to know. Prove me wrong instead of talking down to me, convert me to your cause, all I require is the truth, can you do that, as I await your response.

just a warning to you all considering a union. open your eyes, wake up you stand to lose more than you know if you vote for a union. unions have lost thier strength everywhere and negotiations are only backfiring for them. what do you stand to lose, let me tell you. your budget/finance guy is not friend to the deputy, he will cut off your benifits at your knees. beware dont have tunnel vision looking at the dollars in raises right now, look at the future benifits. once you negotiate contracts you LOSE, no grandfathering in retirement benifits such as INSURANCE COVERAGE!!!!!!! you will lose it. so forget about free insurance after your 20 years of service, do you know how much lcso will save once you go into negotiations if you unionize. if you stay the way you are, you will get grandfathered for those benifits and they only take them away from new hires. dah....... vacations, sick time acurals, forget about 5 weeks after 20 years. you will lose,lose lose.

stop thinking short term and start thinking long term.......insurance, retirement....you old timers with 10 years or more, you have been there too long to give up that retirement insurance 75-100 percent after 15 to 20 years of service. you will lose that once you agree to negotiate a union contract, dah.....wake up and remember your lcso benifits and your frs benifits are two different things...........

remember, Lt.'s and above get whatever the civilians get, and whatever the county peole get. Sergeants and Deputies get stuck with union junk.....and the union has no power in a right to work state. check it out they have lost power in New York and Chicago.

be careful what you wish for.....................big mistake

Calderone hurry up and get those cards signed. We need a union now!!!

This post is very true. Please don't be fooled by false promises or a quick fix now from Union followers. If unions are so good, why is it that I have a close relative that works for the state under union contact and has not had a raise in 5 years? Yeah, unions are great, not. If you have any intention of being with LCSO long term you need to think long term. Unions are not long term hence the reason they renegotiate their contracts quite often. I fully understand the frustration going on within the agency I too am pissed to say the least about not getting a raise to offset the increase cost of living over the past 3+ years. Even when we do get raises some day, we will still be underpaid because of the economy and poor planning of our current administration to deal with it. Unions will only cost money out of your pocket now and in the long run when you decide to retire, especially regarding your medical coverage. Look how good the union worked for the UAW. Now they are working for the government since the feds own 60+% of GM and Chrysler. I don't want to join one, and understand majority rules. I would ask that you really consider the pros/cons. Because the economy is so bad, I just don't believe they have the pull like they used to 10-20 years ago.

Be vocal and write the news press since the sheriff is not or chooses not to listen to your concerns; be anonymous if you are afraid of retaliation. There are so many ways to trim the fat of our budget to give deputies raises, at least 3% to help with COLA. Why does a budget director need a take home car, why does a dept attorney need a car, why don't victim advocates use pool cars, why does the sheriff need a "consultant," why can't computer techs use pool cars as well as their director? If these people need to go to a dept function, take a pool car or submit a receipt to finance and they can get reimbursed a few cents per mile like every other business in America. We need to stop wasteful spending. It would be nice to see the county commissioners come in and conduct and audit of all expenditures to ensure the tax payers are really getting their moneys worth.
Also, where is the accountabilty for supervisors not capable of doing their jobs? We all know people are in positions above their heads yet their supervisors are negligent in their duties to act and document their failures. Our star used too have a shine to it and over the past year or so, it has gotten tarnished. This needs to change..... 2012 :wink:



just a warning to you all considering a union. open your eyes, wake up you stand to lose more than you know if you vote for a union. unions have lost thier strength everywhere and negotiations are only backfiring for them. what do you stand to lose, let me tell you. your budget/finance guy is not friend to the deputy, he will cut off your benifits at your knees. beware dont have tunnel vision looking at the dollars in raises right now, look at the future benifits. once you negotiate contracts you LOSE, no grandfathering in retirement benifits such as INSURANCE COVERAGE!!!!!!! you will lose it. so forget about free insurance after your 20 years of service, do you know how much lcso will save once you go into negotiations if you unionize. if you stay the way you are, you will get grandfathered for those benifits and they only take them away from new hires. dah....... vacations, sick time acurals, forget about 5 weeks after 20 years. you will lose,lose lose.

stop thinking short term and start thinking long term.......insurance, retirement....you old timers with 10 years or more, you have been there too long to give up that retirement insurance 75-100 percent after 15 to 20 years of service. you will lose that once you agree to negotiate a union contract, dah.....wake up and remember your lcso benifits and your frs benifits are two different things...........

remember, Lt.'s and above get whatever the civilians get, and whatever the county peole get. Sergeants and Deputies get stuck with union junk.....and the union has no power in a right to work state. check it out they have lost power in New York and Chicago.

be careful what you wish for.....................big mistake

Calderone hurry up and get those cards signed. We need a union now!!!

you know the last time i looked we live in the United States of America and have a right to make sure we are secure in our livelyhoods! im not a member of any union at this time but i would like to see if being represented by a bargining unit is worth the it. these blue cards simple give the PBA there right to pitch there line of bull to our members and if it suits you then a vote must take place were they must get 50% plus one. i would think in an open forum the PBA would have to answer some tough question regarding our bennifits, pay raises and take home cars. all of your concerns are mine. No edjucated person would vote for something that would hurt themselfs or family! For those of you who write blogs; man up and use your name or don't write anything at all and don't make a feeble attempt to put me out there with the hopes you might scare me or shut me up, because if that was you intention you don't know me very well. I implore each of you to do what you think is right for you and your family as i will do the same.

you can complain today about no raises but you will cry tommorrow if you go union and give up the best benifits that any SO has gotten to keep over so many years. Do your homework people, lcso planning and research did a survey a few years ago and NO AGENCY had the benifits you have. ask the people from that unit, oh wait i think they retired with the benifits you are willing to forfiet if you choose a union and go into contract negotiations.

the civilians will get all the perks and the deputies will lose if you continue on this path. believe me those of you seeking a union are now the minority in the agency. remember the union will only represent you deputies that are sergeants and below. everyone else will get what ever the county gets.

once you pay out iunion dues and health insurance coverage for your family your not gonna have any money left from any raise you do get, if pendergrass gets you a raise.

keep working those details boys and girls cuz your gonna need them.......maybe you should open your eyes cuz if things were so bad why did you leave and come back calderone??? couldn't have been that bad

choose your battles wisely ladies and gentlemen...........

you can complain today about no raises but you will cry tommorrow if you go union and give up the best benifits that any SO has gotten to keep over so many years. Do your homework people, lcso planning and research did a survey a few years ago and NO AGENCY had the benifits you have. ask the people from that unit, oh wait i think they retired with the benifits you are willing to forfiet if you choose a union and go into contract negotiations.

the civilians will get all the perks and the deputies will lose if you continue on this path. believe me those of you seeking a union are now the minority in the agency. remember the union will only represent you deputies that are sergeants and below. everyone else will get what ever the county gets.

once you pay out iunion dues and health insurance coverage for your family your not gonna have any money left from any raise you do get, if pendergrass gets you a raise.

keep working those details boys and girls cuz your gonna need them.......maybe you should open your eyes cuz if things were so bad why did you leave and come back calderone??? couldn't have been that bad

choose your battles wisely ladies and gentlemen...........

once again, another blogger uses my name as an example. listen! get a pair and put your name down Guest 13!!!! im niether for nor against the union, im doing exactly what our sheriff said to do; educating myself on both sides of the issue before i decide. i have never bad mouthed my agency nor my sheriff!!!!!!!!! I have the utmost respect for our current sheriff! For me i just would like to hear what a union could or could not offer. This has happened two times before and the union could not measure up. i know what we have unlike most i have used our insurance in the amout of hundreds of thousands!!! and as far as my return Guest 13 put your name down and i would be more than happy to discuss my past decision to return!!!!! you people hide behind anonymous names and as far as im concerned youre cowards! In these times of economical uncertainty i have concerns like everyone else about future benifits and most of us are just looking for some reassurance that this time next year things will have changed. This is not battle for me, i simply want to see if there is a better way. an isn't that the American way!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :

So what is your name...big man?

you are not revealling your name? but yet you rant about others and answer to comments made to calderone as if you are him? this is information and a place to voice opinions, you voice yours and others voice thiers. it is not about being a coward, it is about not having to deal with you or anyone else treating people indifferent at work or on the street or confronting someone because they voice thier opinion. its about not having to deal with your name calling and insults, your attempts to intimmidate people. if you dont like what is said here dont read it , if you cant take the heat get out of the kitchen. this is a forum. a disscussion board..................

i am merely enlightening the readers with information to help them in thier future to avoid mistakes they will regret.......i have seen and heard alot of things that went on behind doors at lcso in the past .....deputies do your homework dont depend on Pendergrass, he knows nothing about lcso he doesnt work there, he has no history with lcso. vested deputies talk to the new guys and gals or you will lose..................good :cop: luck :cop:

if you want to pay for ALL your benifits, have less equipment, no cars and tied/locked into a so called contract.....then go for the PBA. i have been there and seen it with my own eyes. enjoy what you have. the PBA can not make the county give you a raise (despite what you may think or they may tell you).

please dont be a part of making us loose what we have. FMPD is hiring (and have the PBA) SO IF YOU DONT LIKE IT HERE THEN QUIT.

If almost every single police agency in the state of Florida has a union AND we historically have much better benefits and protections than they do, WHY don't all the other agencies in the state follow our lead and dump their unions? Oh yeah...because it is INSANE to be a COP WITHOUT UNION PROTECTION. That's why.

If contracts are so horrible, why do some agencies purchase ALL their sick time at retirement.
Why do some agencies get insurance for life?
Why do some agencies get a shift differential for night work?
Why do some agencies have a 14 day advance notice before a re-assignment (meaning you cannot be reassigned in under two weeks unless you agree to it...even if the sheriff doesn't like you)?
Why do some agencies spell out EXACTLY who can be picked from a promotion list (not your buddy who scored a 72 and is 64th on the list)?
Why do some agencies have deputies calling the on call PBA attorney to respond to your scene when you've been in a shooting or killed someone in a signal 4?

It is time to stop acting like we're "just lucky to have our jobs at all". That's the attitude that allows these people to treat us like dirt. We have the benefits now, but it can all go away with the stroke of a pen and we have NOTHING TO SAY ABOUT IT. Take control of your own destiny, for God's sake. Act like a man and take some control of your own life.

O.K. so it's been a few days, where is our information?

How are you going to pay for step-plans, overtime on holidays, promoting all of your PBA supporters?

The answer, hey guys just fill out those blue cards and THEN we'll come up with a plan. You will notice the one guy spamming this board with pro-union misinformation, always ending in you don't have the balls etc..ONE GUY KEEPS WRITING THE SAME CRAP, WITH NO INFORMATION IN IT AT ALL. JUST A WISH LIST OF WHAT "OTHER PEOPLE" HAVE.

Mr. Pendergrass is aware of this topic, and yet, nothing. No plan, no information, just the same everyone else has a union so we should to.

Do not sign the blue cards until this is spelled out. If they can state how the PBA will finance this little endeavor without us losing our insurance, go ahead.

I've already spoken to a representative, this is how it is going to work; health insurance,gone. I was told in a right to work state (Florida) we are sol as far as insurance. Our contract will never be accepted with a self insurance policy, it costs to much.

WE WILL LOSE OUR INSURANCE, WHEN YOU RETIRE, YOU AND YOUR FAMILY WILL NOT HAVE INSURANCE!

PBA can not refute this, it will happen. That is the tip of the iceberg, look at your district "PBA pushers" ask what they are being told by Mr. Pendergrass they will receive if we go PBA. A good local example of this is FMPD, the "PBA pushers" all are brass now, how does that work exactly? The PBA pushes for it's loyal to achieve higher influence in the agency, while ostracizing those who go against it.

Don't fall for the, "well let's just sign the blue cards and then they will tell us what they will do, bullsh**!" You will find they will mysteriously get their 50% plus one vote, and we will all be sol.

I'm a Deputy, I have a family, I think our current situation sucks a lot! This union is not the answer, when we lose our benefits, we will NEVER get them back. I don't want to spend seven hundred a month on insurance. Think about it, ask questions, this will effect you and your family for the rest of your life. Get the answers before taking another step, and know their are people who will receive something for us going Union.

Alright,

For the two or three guys spamming Unions as the second coming, I have a question.

1.) How are all of these miracles supposed to come to pass. The money has to come from somewhere correct? You can promise us all kinds of shiny wonderfull things, but can you deliver? At best you will get a one year contract if we accepted a union. What can we expect that first year?

Lee County is laying off Fireman, but Mr. Pendergrass and his posse are going to get you what? a 3% raise? overtime on Christmas? How is he going to deliver such fantastic things...

Let's see;

The money will come from all of us losing our health benefits

Yeaah, I get to spend five to seven hundred dollars a month on Health insurance for my family, go Union!

The money will come from all of us losing our take home cars

The joy of driving to the district to switch out cars! You get a take home car right out of FTO now, good bye to that.

The money will come from and hurt the working Deputy, not admin. If you think it will come from them your kidding yourself.

Ask yourself who stands to gain from this so called partnership, the Union does, admin does, sixty fiver's do not.

Call anyone you know at FMPD. Ask them how their union is improving their lives. Ask how their administration is in bed with the union, who takes it in the end (literally)
You want union representation, enroll on your own. Anyone that tells you you can't have representation is lying to you.

Several members are lining themselves up to be "union representatives" I'm sure you know who they are. Self serving is putting it politely, they stand to gain rank through this merger, don't kid yourself on that.

I'm just one person, and this is my opinion, but beware of something that sounds to good to be true. If you sign the "blue cards" you are trading one master for many, that's it. The union is not a democracy, the union can and will promise exactly what you want to hear, but how can they deliver?

On the note of the civilians getting raises and not us, that sucks...a lot. Guess what though, the union couldn't have stopped that, they have no control over civilian funding.

On a final note (possibly a rant) what happens when Mr. Pendergrass gets in power, presents his demands to our crooked as hell councilmen and they tell him to stuff it.
We can't strike, all we can do is give up things we already have in order to get something we want. Will Mr. Pendergrass give away our hard earned perks, you bet your ass he will.

And for all of the incoming pro union members, I am one Deputy trying to point out what I see as a bad choice, prove me wrong.


First of all, if you think that healthcare, personal use of department vehicles, and reduction or elimination of other benefits is not being considered by the Sheriff right now, you are sadly mistaken. Free healthcare is unsustainable. If you do not believe this, follow your chain of command and ask the Sheriff if he is considering a premium payment for insurance. Do not accept some political answer like"...I'm fighting for your rights." Ask him if he anticipates that this will occur during this budget. Ask him if he is considering a premium payment for the use of take home vehicles. Ask him if he is considering further reduction of salaries by removing all specialty incentive pay. Mike Scott is an honest and approachable man that will give you a truthful response.

Now, let’s look at what would immediately happen if we vote to unionize. Management is prevented from making any changes to existing work conditions. This includes pay, take home cars, insurance, hours of work, days off, etc. Everything is frozen until you vote on a contract. If you don’t like the contract because it impacts your health insurance, take home cars, or incentive pay negatively, don't vote for it and it does not pass.

If you like the contract vote for it and the Sheriff MUST honor it. It is a binding contract. The county commissioners cannot refuse to honor it. If they have to go into reserves to get the cash then so be it. They must honor the terms of the contract.

Okay, so say that nobody likes the contract and nobody votes for it. Or, during negotiations, an impasse is met that cannot be overcome by either party. The points of the contract are then sent to an arbitrator. The arbitrator then rules on the points and creates a contract that is binding on both the County and the LCSO rank and file membership. The arbitrators are picked equally by management, membership, and a third party. Once the contract is arbitrated, it is BINDING ON BOTH PARTIES.

Okay, now say we get a Union and healthcare is based on premium payment. Generally in situations like this, salaries are raised beyond the cost of the premium. It is very rare that this is not the case. And of course the same goes for vehicles, clothing, etc. This generally results in a significant pay increase in the first contract that is offset by percentage points for the premium payments. This results in some extra money in your pocket but not the full amount negotiated because it is offset by the premiums.

Now this does not seem like that great of a deal if you look at it from a very narrow immediate viewpoint. How about looking at it strategically? Okay, say you receive a 10K annual pay raise. And say that total premium payments as a result of the contract are 5k a year. Simple math says that you have a net gain of 5k a year. Take it a step further and say that premium payments are 7 K a year giving you a net gain of 3k a year. Short term, it is not that great of a deal but it is something.

Looking at this scenario in a worst case you have netted short term 3k. If you are a ten year deputy looking to work another 15 years, it is a 45k (net cash) benefit. However, your FRS is based on the full 10 K benefit. So your retirement income is increased by 7.5 k annually based on this scenario. Presuming that you use FRS for 20 years, and adding in the 45k net cash benefit that single point of negotiation becomes a 195k lifetime benefit. Pretty simple.

Do you know that they are currently looking at taxing healthcare benefits as income? Do you know that the only proposed exception to this is for employees that receive healthcare benefits that are union members? Check it out on Fox News, CNN, whatever you want. The LCSO healthcare plan costs about 10-12 k per member. Your tax bill will go up by whatever your taxable rate is multiplied by 10-12 k unless you belong to a union. Like or not, this is the fact.

Some people think that if you are represented by a union that you cannot get fired or disciplined. Not the case. However, it does ensure that you are treated fairly. It does articulate that you are treated the same as your fellow Deputies. It does ensure that your rights are protected. The fact is that individuals represented by unions generally have a better outcome in disciplinary procedures as opposed to those that do not have representation.

Cecil Pendergrass. If the LCSO unionizes, you will have the power to oust Cecil if you don’t like him. You hold him accountable. You vote for leadership. You have the power to remove him from office. If you think that the motivation of an individual is to advance personally rather than ensure that the rights of employees are protected, get him or her the hell out of office. You have the power to do this when you are unionized.

Did you know that Mike Scott has a contract? Why does he have one and you don’t? Did you know that every agency around us has a contract? That is because it is smart to have things in writing. Even if nothing changes, put it in writing. This is just common sense. If you don’t want a union ask Mike Scott to give you a contract without a union. Tell him you want to have your conditions of employment guaranteed in writing like his are with the contract that he has. Tell him you want annual pay raises guaranteed.

Try this for one year. If you don’t think it is a good idea, vote them out. You are kidding yourself if you think that management is looking out for you. They are not.

Alright,

First, thank you for your reply, it is well thought out, and doesn't embrace the pro-union (you don't have the balls to vote for a union)spirit of some of the past replies.

Secondly, you are obviously well versed in PBA material, I can conclude the following from your reply;

1.)Health insurance-gone with union

I'm glad this is finally on the table, to me this is a deal breaker.

2.)Mike Scott is thinking of cutting our insurance off anyway.

I've found dealing in what if's, maybe's and such is not a worthy argument. Will he or someone else one day in the future, maybe, but it's not a reason to give up our Health insurance now, is it?

3.)The County must abide by our contract if they approve it.

You see, this is what I don't like, half truths, you are correct, the County must abide by our contract if they approve it. Not if WE approve it, if they do. Guess what, they won't, not how it's laid out now, unless there is another plan? They don't have to approve it, and they won't, period. Think about it, we just laid off thirty fireman, who in the right mind is going to give LCSO Deputies a 3-6% raise and a step raise? bet your life no the weasels we have right now. You know this is true and yet you claim otherwise, claiming they have to accept our contract is a lie, intended or otherwise. Saying they will dip into County reserve funds is a ridiculous assumption, once again you should no better.

4.)You have no idea where the money to pay for a step plan/overtime/take home cars, etc.. will come from.

This is the whole enchilada, how? where in this age of layoffs and cutbacks will you finance these raises, when no one will approve them? Our tax base is down over thirty percent in Lee County, fact. We go PBA, then what? Ooops sorry guys, the Commissioners said no, maybe next year. Survey says no.

5.)Please tell us how and why the County will accept us getting a pay raise/step plan/etc..

I don't want to reiterate the point, but I feel I must, the County DOES NOT HAVE TO DO OR AGREE TO ANYTHING, THEY WILL SAY NO TO YOUR DEMANDS/CONTRACT, once again, prove me wrong, have one of them go on record, just one, that he/she is even open to the idea

Don't take this personally, we are all on the same side, but these questions must be answered with facts, not fantasy.

Oh, and no one I know or have spoken to is going to just "try out the Union" for a year and see how it goes, there are over six pages on this forum of complaints about the PBA and the inability to get them out once their in. Facts. FMPD would have thrown them out already, but can't. Reach out to any FMPD you see when your dropping off your x-15, take a minute to ask them how much PBA has done for them. Ask about the hollow promises, then ask them to post on this forum (good or bad), although all I've heard is bad, maybe I'm talking to the wrong uniforms.

Mr. Pendergrass and fellow supporters of the PBA union;

Please reply in a simple format on the following questions,

1. The LCSO Deputies will lose their Heath Insurance in collective bargaining. If no, what will you bargain with?

2. What percentage raise are you looking at, if any. Please explain the step-plan raise and the percentages involved.

3. Take home vehicles, rumor has it that those are on the bargaining table as well, if so, details.

4. I've checked into health insurance for myself and my family, $750.00 month, what does the PBA offer in return, cheaper insurance?

5. Please disclose all information in regards to what we can expect from you and the PBA.

Alright,

First, thank you for your reply, it is well thought out, and doesn't embrace the pro-union (you don't have the balls to vote for a union)spirit of some of the past replies.

Secondly, you are obviously well versed in PBA material, I can conclude the following from your reply;

1.)Health insurance-gone with union


I'm glad this is finally on the table, to me this is a deal breaker.

Respectfully, you are wrong. The fact is this. Without a contract, health insurance premiums can be be changed by management without notice. With collective bargaining in place, the change in insurance premiums must be negotiated. This gives you the right to say no to the levy of a premium for health insurance. However, in our current financial situation, it is likely you would have to give on something else in order to remain in a condition of employment where health insurance is premium free. Likely would be pay(no pay raise and you are not getting that now). However, your premium free policy would remain for the duration of the contract, and you would be in exactly the same position that you are right now on that point. What would not happen would be the arbitrary levying of a premium for insurance wihtout negotiation (increase in pay to offset the premium). You can google example after example of arbitrators rulings on exactly this point. Here is the Florida case that prohibits the employer from changing insurance premiums when protected by collective bargaining.

Pinellas County Police Benevolent Association v. City of Dunedin, 8 FPER ¶ 13102 (1982).
Employee health insurance programs are terms and conditions of employment which must be the subject of negotiation. The City committed an unfair labor practice by unilaterally increasing the premium paid by employees for dependent health insurance coverage.


2.)Mike Scott is thinking of cutting our insurance off anyway.

I've found dealing in what if's, maybe's and such is not a worthy argument. Will he or someone else one day in the future, maybe, but it's not a reason to give up our Health insurance now, is it?

You are right. The fact of the matter is that the Lee County Sheriff has not publicly stated that insurance premiums may be levied now, or for that matter, in the future. However, follow your chain of command and ask the Sheriff if this is something that is being discussed. He is a good and honorable man with great integrity. He will answer the question honestly. In the absence of that official answer, common sense must prevail. If you were running the budget, you would be looking for alternatives also.

3.)The County must abide by our contract if they approve it.

You see, this is what I don't like, half truths, you are correct, the County must abide by our contract if they approve it. Not if WE approve it, if they do. Guess what, they won't, not how it's laid out now, unless there is another plan? They don't have to approve it, and they won't, period. Think about it, we just laid off thirty fireman, who in the right mind is going to give LCSO Deputies a 3-6% raise and a step raise? bet your life no the weasels we have right now. You know this is true and yet you claim otherwise, claiming they have to accept our contract is a lie, intended or otherwise. Saying they will dip into County reserve funds is a ridiculous assumption, once again you should no better.

Florida State Statute 447 may clear up your lack of understanding of this point. Here it is.
The 2007 Florida Statutes

Title XXXI
LABOR Chapter 447
LABOR ORGANIZATIONS View Entire Chapter

447.309 Collective bargaining; approval or rejection.--

(1) After an employee organization has been certified pursuant to the provisions of this part, the bargaining agent for the organization and the chief executive officer of the appropriate public employer or employers, jointly, shall bargain collectively in the determination of the wages, hours, and terms and conditions of employment of the public employees within the bargaining unit. The chief executive officer or his or her representative and the bargaining agent or its representative shall meet at reasonable times and bargain in good faith. In conducting negotiations with the bargaining agent, the chief executive officer or his or her representative shall consult with, and attempt to represent the views of, the legislative body of the public employer. Any collective bargaining agreement reached by the negotiators shall be reduced to writing, and such agreement shall be signed by the chief executive officer and the bargaining agent. Any agreement signed by the chief executive officer and the bargaining agent shall not be binding on the public employer until such agreement has been ratified by the public employer and by public employees who are members of the bargaining unit, subject to the provisions of subsections (2) and (3). However, with respect to statewide bargaining units, any agreement signed by the Governor and the bargaining agent for such a unit shall not be binding until approved by the public employees who are members of the bargaining unit, subject to the provisions of subsections (2) and (3).

(2)(a) Upon execution of the collective bargaining agreement, the chief executive shall, in his or her annual budget request or by other appropriate means, request the legislative body to appropriate such amounts as shall be sufficient to fund the provisions of the collective bargaining agreement.

(b) If the state is a party to a collective bargaining agreement in which less than the requested amount is appropriated by the Legislature, the collective bargaining agreement shall be administered on the basis of the amounts appropriated by the Legislature. The failure of the Legislature to appropriate funds sufficient to fund the collective bargaining agreement shall not constitute, or be evidence of, any unfair labor practice. All collective bargaining agreements entered into by the state are subject to the appropriations powers of the Legislature, and the provisions of this section shall not conflict with the exclusive authority of the Legislature to appropriate funds.

(3) If any provision of a collective bargaining agreement is in conflict with any law, ordinance, rule, or regulation over which the chief executive officer has no amendatory power, the chief executive officer shall submit to the appropriate governmental body having amendatory power a proposed amendment to such law, ordinance, rule, or regulation. Unless and until such amendment is enacted or adopted and becomes effective, the conflicting provision of the collective bargaining agreement shall not become effective.

(4) If the agreement is not ratified by the public employer or is not approved by a majority vote of employees voting in the unit, in accordance with procedures adopted by the commission, the agreement shall be returned to the chief executive officer and the employee organization for further negotiations.

(5) Any collective bargaining agreement shall not provide for a term of existence of more than 3 years and shall contain all of the terms and conditions of employment of the employees in the bargaining unit during such term except those terms and conditions provided for in applicable merit and civil service rules and regulations.





4.)You have no idea where the money to pay for a step plan/overtime/take home cars, etc.. will come from.

This is the whole enchilada, how? where in this age of layoffs and cutbacks will you finance these raises, when no one will approve them? Our tax base is down over thirty percent in Lee County, fact. We go PBA, then what? Ooops sorry guys, the Commissioners said no, maybe next year. Survey says no.

You are partly correct. Nobody has any idea where the money will come from. That is why professional negotiators and accountants come to look at all of monies available, budgeted or in reserves, in order to counter management's predictable assertion that there is no money to meet the demands of collective bargaining. Again refer to chapter 447.

5.)Please tell us how and why the County will accept us getting a pay raise/step plan/etc..

I don't want to reiterate the point, but I feel I must, the County DOES NOT HAVE TO DO OR AGREE TO ANYTHING, THEY WILL SAY NO TO YOUR DEMANDS/CONTRACT, once again, prove me wrong, have one of them go on record, just one, that he/she is even open to the idea

You are not well informed on this point and are wrong. Collective bargaining is binding. If a contract is not ratified, arbitration is binding. Here is FSS 447 again

Title XXXI
LABOR Chapter 447
LABOR ORGANIZATIONS View Entire Chapter

1447.403 Resolution of impasses.--

(1) If, after a reasonable period of negotiation concerning the terms and conditions of employment to be incorporated in a collective bargaining agreement, a dispute exists between a public employer and a bargaining agent, an impasse shall be deemed to have occurred when one of the parties so declares in writing to the other party and to the commission. When an impasse occurs, the public employer or the bargaining agent, or both parties acting jointly, may appoint, or secure the appointment of, a mediator to assist in the resolution of the impasse. If the Governor is the public employer, no mediator shall be appointed.

(2)(a) If no mediator is appointed, or upon the request of either party, the commission shall appoint, and submit all unresolved issues to, a special magistrate acceptable to both parties. If the parties are unable to agree on the appointment of a special magistrate, the commission shall appoint, in its discretion, a qualified special magistrate. However, if the parties agree in writing to waive the appointment of a special magistrate, the parties may proceed directly to resolution of the impasse by the legislative body pursuant to paragraph (4)(d). Nothing in this section precludes the parties from using the services of a mediator at any time during the conduct of collective bargaining.

(b) If the Governor is the public employer, no special magistrate shall be appointed. The parties may proceed directly to the Legislature for resolution of the impasse pursuant to paragraph (4)(d).

(c) If the district school board is the public employer and an impasse is declared under subsection (1) involving a dispute of a Merit Award Program Plan under s. 1012.225, the dispute is subject to an expedited impasse hearing. Notwithstanding subsections (3), (4), and (5), and the rules adopted by the commission, the following procedures shall apply:

1.a. The commission shall furnish the names of seven special magistrates within 5 days after receiving notice of impasse. If the parties are unable to agree upon a special magistrate within 5 days after the date of the letter transmitting the list of choices, the commission shall immediately appoint a special magistrate. The special magistrate shall set the hearing, which shall be held no later than 15 days after the date of appointment of the special magistrate. Within 5 days after the date of appointment of a special magistrate, each party shall serve upon the special magistrate and upon each other party a written list of issues at impasse.

b. At the close of the hearing, the parties shall summarize their arguments and may provide a written memorandum in support of their positions.

c. Within 10 days after the close of the hearing, the special magistrate shall transmit a recommended decision to the commission and the parties.

d. The recommended decision of the special magistrate shall be deemed accepted by the parties, except as to those recommendations that a party specifically rejects, by filing a written notice with the commission and serving a copy on the other party within 5 days after the date of the recommended decision.

2. If a party rejects any part of the recommended decision of the special magistrate, the parties shall proceed directly to resolution of the impasse by the district school board pursuant to paragraph (4)(d).

(3) The special magistrate shall hold hearings in order to define the area or areas of dispute, to determine facts relating to the dispute, and to render a decision on any and all unresolved contract issues. The hearings shall be held at times, dates, and places to be established by the special magistrate in accordance with rules promulgated by the commission. The special magistrate shall be empowered to administer oaths and issue subpoenas on behalf of the parties to the dispute or on his or her own behalf. Within 15 calendar days after the close of the final hearing, the special magistrate shall transmit his or her recommended decision to the commission and to the representatives of both parties by registered mail, return receipt requested. Such recommended decision shall be discussed by the parties, and each recommendation of the special magistrate shall be deemed approved by both parties unless specifically rejected by either party by written notice filed with the commission within 20 calendar days after the date the party received the special magistrate's recommended decision. The written notice shall include a statement of the cause for each rejection and shall be served upon the other party.

(4) If either the public employer or the employee organization does not accept, in whole or in part, the recommended decision of the special magistrate:

(a) The chief executive officer of the governmental entity involved shall, within 10 days after rejection of a recommendation of the special magistrate, submit to the legislative body of the governmental entity involved a copy of the findings of fact and recommended decision of the special magistrate, together with the chief executive officer's recommendations for settling the disputed impasse issues. The chief executive officer shall also transmit his or her recommendations to the employee organization;

(b) The employee organization shall submit its recommendations for settling the disputed impasse issues to such legislative body and to the chief executive officer;

(c) The legislative body or a duly authorized committee thereof shall forthwith conduct a public hearing at which the parties shall be required to explain their positions with respect to the rejected recommendations of the special magistrate;

(d) Thereafter, the legislative body shall take such action as it deems to be in the public interest, including the interest of the public employees involved, to resolve all disputed impasse issues; and

(e) Following the resolution of the disputed impasse issues by the legislative body, the parties shall reduce to writing an agreement which includes those issues agreed to by the parties and those disputed impasse issues resolved by the legislative body's action taken pursuant to paragraph (d). The agreement shall be signed by the chief executive officer and the bargaining agent and shall be submitted to the public employer and to the public employees who are members of the bargaining unit for ratification. If such agreement is not ratified by all parties, pursuant to the provisions of s. 447.309, the legislative body's action taken pursuant to the provisions of paragraph (d) shall take effect as of the date of such legislative body's action for the remainder of the first fiscal year which was the subject of negotiations; however, the legislative body's action shall not take effect with respect to those disputed impasse issues which establish the language of contractual provisions which could have no effect in the absence of a ratified agreement, including, but not limited to, preambles, recognition clauses, and duration clauses.

(5)(a) Within 5 days after the beginning of the impasse period in accordance with s. 216.163(6), each party shall notify the President of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives as to all unresolved issues. Upon receipt of the notification, the presiding officers shall appoint a joint select committee to review the position of the parties and render a recommended resolution of all issues remaining at impasse. The recommended resolution shall be returned by the joint select committee to the presiding officers not later than 10 days prior to the date upon which the legislative session is scheduled to commence. During the legislative session, the Legislature shall take action in accordance with this section.

(b) Any actions taken by the Legislature shall bind the parties in accordance with paragraph (4)(c).



Don't take this personally, we are all on the same side, but these questions must be answered with facts, not fantasy.

I hope that you find these responses to be either based in fact or reasonable where facts are not available.

Oh, and no one I know or have spoken to is going to just "try out the Union" for a year and see how it goes, there are over six pages on this forum of complaints about the PBA and the inability to get them out once their in. Facts. FMPD would have thrown them out already, but can't. Reach out to any FMPD you see when your dropping off your x-15, take a minute to ask them how much PBA has done for them. Ask about the hollow promises, then ask them to post on this forum (good or bad), although all I've heard is bad, maybe I'm talking to the wrong uniforms.

Once you have PERC protection in place, conditions of employment may not be changed in absence of a contract(i.e.health insurance premiums, take home vehicles, transfers---in most cases, hours or conditions of work, equipment, training). Also, if the PBA is not the answer, and you feel the FOP or Teamsters, or Bobs Union for that matter, would be more appropriate, you can ask them to be represented in the collective bargaining process. Here is how that works. Call them and ask them to pitch their schpiel to the members. Everyone shows their cards. The members vote. If neither party receives fifty-one percent of the total votes cast,the matter goes to runoff. In a runoff, the group receiving the most votes wins and represents the rank and file membership for the purposes of collective bargaining. I am looking for teh PERC rule that covers that to ensure that this is accurate. I cannot locate it right now. However, I hope that you can tell that I am being sincere and basing responses in fact and not conjecture, rumor, or inuendo. I still cannot locate the offical rule/statute that governs this but here is something from Florida's PERC FAQ Page.
Q: What happens if there is more than one Union involved?
A: There will be a choice on the ballot for either Union as well as a No choice. In order for someone to prevail, they would need more than 50% of the votes that were cast. If none of the choices received more than 50% of the votes, then there would be Run-Off Election between the two choices receiving the highest amount of votes.

I hope that you can make a better informed decision now than you did before,regardles if you are pro or con. Look, a collective bargaining situation is not perfect. Anyone who tells you that it is, is lying. It does give you rights, control over how monies are spent, and cleary illustrates how management and employees must perform, statutorily. It may also hurt at times. In MHO, it is the right choice. It is is a personal choice. I respect your deceision either way as a brother LEO.

One more thing that i forgot to mention. LCSO is covered by FRS. Correct? Well look up the insurance section of special risk retirement. The fact is this. You must be allowed to continue your coverage at the rate that was in place at seperation. Again, common sense tells you that insurance premium payments are probably no more than six months to a year away. Don't you want some say in this process? Even if i am wrong, LCSO is a young agency. In their career, the members will undoubtedly see premium payments for health insurance. I don't think that any one can argue that this is the case. Why wouldn't you want some say in this process. Also, Health insurance is the topic of new legislation where it will become a taxable benefit. However, health insurance premiums will not be taxed if the citizen is a member of collective bargaining. Check it out on google, fox news, cnn, whatever you want. To be fair and not a "sky is falling" kind of person this legislation is not yet passed. But it gives you an idea where the current US adnministration is heading.

Having read your examples (and not being a lawyer) I don't find anywhere in the provisions or articles that state the Commissioners have to accept any agreement. Because of course they do not have to. They can at anytime say no, and can not be forced to give in to a contract. Negotiation yes, submit, no.

It is stated multiple times as to the effects of arbitration, granted. I fail to see how, we as a union have any collective bargaining power, we have the rights as shown above to negotiate a contract; but that is all I am able to ascertain from it.

That being the case, what stops the commissioners from saying no, we don't have the money for anything you are asking.

I see the formula for arbitrators, negotiators, magistrates and what happens if an impasse is made. That is fine and good, I now see in depth who is involved, but the question (in my eyes) remains, the Lee County Commissioners can and have said no to the LCSO's budget. The union is no different than the Sheriff in that they must negotiate with the Commissioners, not state a series of demands.

I have faith that the Sheriff has tried to reach the best possible deal, civilian raises aside, what can the PBA realistically do that has not been done.

It seems this whole scenario revolves around the PBA saying, hey we will give up the twenty six million dollar health care if you give us a step raise. I still am not sure that is the best course for myself and my family.

What are the takeoff's that the PBA is going to use to negotiate?

Having read your examples (and not being a lawyer) I don't find anywhere in the provisions or articles that state the Commissioners have to accept any agreement. Because of course they do not have to. They can at anytime say no, and can not be forced to give in to a contract. Negotiation yes, submit, no.

It is stated multiple times as to the effects of arbitration, granted. I fail to see how, we as a union have any collective bargaining power, we have the rights as shown above to negotiate a contract; but that is all I am able to ascertain from it.

That being the case, what stops the commissioners from saying no, we don't have the money for anything you are asking.

I see the formula for arbitrators, negotiators, magistrates and what happens if an impasse is made. That is fine and good, I now see in depth who is involved, but the question (in my eyes) remains, the Lee County Commissioners can and have said no to the LCSO's budget. The union is no different than the Sheriff in that they must negotiate with the Commissioners, not state a series of demands.

I have faith that the Sheriff has tried to reach the best possible deal, civilian raises aside, what can the PBA realistically do that has not been done.

It seems this whole scenario revolves around the PBA saying, hey we will give up the twenty six million dollar health care if you give us a step raise. I still am not sure that is the best course for myself and my family.

What are the takeoff's that the PBA is going to use to negotiate?

Sorry. Should have been clearer. There are also Federal codes and statutes that govern the behavior of local and state governments. I believe they are title 5 and chapter 71 (not sure though).There is also federal and state contract laws (civil and criminal) that govern collective bargaining agreements in states that have collective bargaining laws.

The county commissioners cannot refuse to honor a collective bargaining agreement. If I am wrong, can you please cite the legislation or case law that indicates this? I have never heard of this being lawful or, for that matter, considered without immediate intervention by the federal courts.

I know that paying 750 dollars a month would be devastating to most employees of the LCSO. I do not believe that it would go that high with or without a union. Again, this is a guess.

Please do not think that I am being adversarial. I just cannot figure out why you think the Lee County Commissioners are different than any other municipal or county government in this nation. There are collective bargaining units being negotiated today that governments here in Florida, as well as the rest of the country, must honor. Can you provide one instance where a government has said “No” to collective bargaining where the Federal Courts have not stepped in and found the government must honor collective bargaining agreements.

If the county commissioners refuse to ratify the contract they must notify the represented membership within five days and then go to arbitration, which is binding on both parties. You can confirm this on PERCS website or with one phone call to Tallahassee.

Here is the fed statue that mandates an employer must negotiate (in our case Sheriff and CC)

Sec. 8. [§ 158.] (a) [Unfair labor practices by employer] It shall be an unfair labor practice for an employer--

(1) to interfere with, restrain, or coerce employees in the exercise of the rights guaranteed in section 7 [section 157 of this title];

------------------------------------

(5) to refuse to bargain collectively with the representatives of his employees, subject to the provisions of section 9(a) [section 159(a) of this title].

Here is the link to the NLRB

http://www.nlrb.gov/about_us/overview/n ... s_act.aspx (http://www.nlrb.gov/about_us/overview/national_labor_relations_act.aspx)

Also, recently federal and international legislation and opinion has ruled that collective bargaining is a human right. I don’t think Ray Judah is above that.

The next time that you are down at the 20th for court, ask one of the attorneys there that you trust if the county commissioners can reject collective bargaining. Now don’t get me wrong, I we ask for a starting salary of 95k with 30 paid holidays and seventeen weeks of vacation, the commissioners have cause for judicial intervention.


The PBA is not focusing on healthcare. Members o f the LCSO that are against the union seem to be.. I am not pro PBA. I am pro Union. If they can offer the best package, then I will go with them. If the teamsters are better, I will go with them. The same for the FOP.

Again, we are both cops and I do not want this type of debate to come between any cops. It is great to see that there are people like you out there that are looking out for what they think is best for their agency as well as their family.

Ill check back in tomorrow to see how you made out!

Florida is a right to work state. As a bargaining unit you only have collective power to ask for benefits. A union can give you a bit of power to negotiate with the county, but you can't strike or slow down work. You can only appeal to them or ask for arbitration wwhen you disagree with what they give you. Even then it's mostly non-binding. I've said here before I believe the county will do the right thing as the economy improves and the tax base comes back.

Where a union is sorely needed in Lee County is in protection of deputies rights. In the 20 years I've lived in Lee County and worked in law enforcement, I've seen each successive administration abuse the hell out of deputies. I have no horse in this race, but it seemed the Shoap adminisration was the lesser of the evils when it came to abusing it's people. I was a Mike Scott fan once. Not anymore. I didn't vote for him the second time after seeing the way he slashed and burned the careers of his people. I'll vote for the crazy democrat guy next time before I'll vote for Scott again.

All the Union is going to do for any of you is give you legal protection. If you don't see with your own eyes that you need legal representation in this work, and especially with this administration, then there's nothing anyone can do for you. You should be wearing a helmet for your own protection.

Unless you just enjoy being abused by administration, get PBA or FOP. It desn't matter. Just get someone with the legal power that isn't involved in Lee County politics to represent you.

[getoutahere]

Right to work is only referring to the right of one to enjoy employment, and the benefits of collective bargaining, without having to actually join the union. Texas is also a right to work state. It is also one of the strongest union states in the nation. Nevada is a right to work state. Tell me you don't think of the Teamsters when you think of Nevada. How bout all those hotel workers and dealers. Famous for their union ties. Right to work is exactly that, a right to work without being forced into a union shop.

You are correct that about benefits. However, conditions of employment are also negotiated. All employees benefit even if they do not pay the dues.

Very good replies, thank you,

I will have to look further into the negotiating process and what it entails.

The point I quoted above was referring to what the commissioners have done in the past; denying the Sheriff's budget, forcing him to go to the Governor to get the money needed to run the LCSO.

I don't know (yet) the difference of the Sheriff's collective bargaining for a budget, and a Union doing so. It seems that the Commissioners who are tasked with regulating the flow of money (never mind the 75 million dollar stadium that will have to use tax payers money-but will be payed back-) have the right to object to any part of a contract or budget.

They get what the Executive branch lacks, a sort of line item veto, from what I am reading. If they don't like any part of it, they can say no to it.

As to Ray Judah or any of the other Commissioners, I have no faith in them, at all. They are self serving, politically motivated, and corrupt, above and beyond what should be tolerated in a normal politician, (but that is for another thread)

Teamsters and FOP, I don't know anything about them other than the teamsters seem to be a fairly credible Union. Are their LEO's that are Teamsters? That would be an interesting T-shirt to wear. :P

[getoutahere]

just a warning to you all considering a union. open your eyes, wake up you stand to lose more than you know if you vote for a union. unions have lost thier strength everywhere and negotiations are only backfiring for them. what do you stand to lose, let me tell you. your budget/finance guy is not friend to the deputy, he will cut off your benifits at your knees. beware dont have tunnel vision looking at the dollars in raises right now, look at the future benifits. once you negotiate contracts you LOSE, no grandfathering in retirement benifits such as INSURANCE COVERAGE!!!!!!! you will lose it. so forget about free insurance after your 20 years of service, do you know how much lcso will save once you go into negotiations if you unionize. if you stay the way you are, you will get grandfathered for those benifits and they only take them away from new hires. dah....... vacations, sick time acurals, forget about 5 weeks after 20 years. you will lose,lose lose.

stop thinking short term and start thinking long term.......insurance, retirement....you old timers with 10 years or more, you have been there too long to give up that retirement insurance 75-100 percent after 15 to 20 years of service. you will lose that once you agree to negotiate a union contract, dah.....wake up and remember your lcso benifits and your frs benifits are two different things...........

remember, Lt.'s and above get whatever the civilians get, and whatever the county peole get. Sergeants and Deputies get stuck with union junk.....and the union has no power in a right to work state. check it out they have lost power in New York and Chicago.

be careful what you wish for.....................big mistake


Where are you getting your information? Why can’t insurance at 75 to 100 percent in retirement be negotiated. The fact is that it can. For that matter any topic is a negotiation topic.

Short term? Unions provide strategic benefits and are generally not known for short term gains.

FRS an Lcso benefits are two different things. Insurance is one of those things that are directly tied to the employee benefit received at the time of employment. You mentioned a ten year deputy. Do you mean to tell us that you think that health insurance will remain premium free for the next fifteen years (the balance of your ten year Deputy's career)?

Even in this economy, Lee County has grown by 40k. It is anticipated to cross 1 million by 2019. Using IACP standards our LEO population will have to grow to about 1200-1500 sworn members. 100 million dollars (more or less) for insurance by a single agency? No premium payment? You are kidding yourself.

If you unionize, insurance premiums must be negotiated BY LAW. That gives you the power to say no to the premium. The ONLY way that you have some say in how your insurance benefit looks in retirement is through collective bargaining. Get the facts straight.

Also, Sgts. and LTs can unionize. Illinois and Florida Supreme Court cases have established this. As a matter of fact, Sgts. and Lts. are protected by collective bargaining in Broward County, among the many other agencies that have such a benefit.

What the hell do you mean a union has no power in a right to work state? Right to work only refers to an open shop policy. It only impacts the dues that may or may not be collected by a Union. It also does not require mebership in a union to enjoy collective bargaining benefits.

IF you think that the FOP has lost power in Chicago and New York you are out of your mind. Provide one FACT to support that assertion.

Nobody has any problem with your anti union position. Just support it with facts, not best guesses.

[getoutahere]

O.K. so it's been a few days, where is our information?

How are you going to pay for step-plans, overtime on holidays, promoting all of your PBA supporters?

The answer, hey guys just fill out those blue cards and THEN we'll come up with a plan. You will notice the one guy spamming this board with pro-union misinformation, always ending in you don't have the balls etc..ONE GUY KEEPS WRITING THE SAME CRAP, WITH NO INFORMATION IN IT AT ALL. JUST A WISH LIST OF WHAT "OTHER PEOPLE" HAVE.

Mr. Pendergrass is aware of this topic, and yet, nothing. No plan, no information, just the same everyone else has a union so we should to.

Do not sign the blue cards until this is spelled out. If they can state how the PBA will finance this little endeavor without us losing our insurance, go ahead.

I've already spoken to a representative, this is how it is going to work; health insurance,gone. I was told in a right to work state (Florida) we are sol as far as insurance. Our contract will never be accepted with a self insurance policy, it costs to much.

WE WILL LOSE OUR INSURANCE, WHEN YOU RETIRE, YOU AND YOUR FAMILY WILL NOT HAVE INSURANCE!

PBA can not refute this, it will happen. That is the tip of the iceberg, look at your district "PBA pushers" ask what they are being told by Mr. Pendergrass they will receive if we go PBA. A good local example of this is FMPD, the "PBA pushers" all are brass now, how does that work exactly? The PBA pushes for it's loyal to achieve higher influence in the agency, while ostracizing those who go against it.

Don't fall for the, "well let's just sign the blue cards and then they will tell us what they will do, bullsh**!" You will find they will mysteriously get their 50% plus one vote, and we will all be sol.

I'm a Deputy, I have a family, I think our current situation sucks a lot! This union is not the answer, when we lose our benefits, we will NEVER get them back. I don't want to spend seven hundred a month on insurance. Think about it, ask questions, this will effect you and your family for the rest of your life. Get the answers before taking another step, and know their are people who will receive something for us going Union.


The only way that you can protect your insurance is to unionize. Whoever told you that you will lose your insurance when you retire is not being truthful or oven close to accurate. You are in amuch more precarious situation in regard to insurance premiums right now that you would be with collective bargaining. If you unionize, insurance premiums must be negotiated. They are a condition of employment. You can verify this at the NLRB website, PERC website and I will post teh case law IN FLORIDA that supports this rule in this State.

Right to work and Self insurance are completely unrelated. Any person that has told you that they are are completely ill informed. Right to work means you can work at a union shop, not pay dues, and still receive collective bargaining benefits. It does not diminish the lawful standing an binding property of collective bargaining.

Self insured is self explanatory. It is too expensive to maintain a standard of premium free insurance. However, if you unionize the employer must negotiate with its members to a fair premium. That is the fact

The money is there for holiday, overtime, and step raises. Lee County has about four years of reserves (i have not seen that actual number, but that is what i am told and the bond rating supports that as well). When you unionize negotiators and accountants look at this and tell teh county where they have teh money. If they refuse it goes to binding arbitration. They must honor a ratified contract or go to binding arbitration. The only case where they cannot honor the contract is if the County files bankruptcy.

Here arre the items that must be negotiated AS MANDATED BY FEDERAL STATUTE. IS THE LCSO GOING TO NEGOTIATE THESE ITEMS WITH YOU WITHOUT A UNION????????????? LETS GET SMART HER GUYS AND GIRLS> GET THE FACTS> IF YOU HEAR SOMETHING VERIFY IT> DONT SPREAD HALF TRUTHS< RMORS AND CONJECTURE> UNDERSTAND LABORLAWS AND CHATER 447 OF FRS. GO TO PERCS WEBSITE. GO TO THE NLRB WEBSITE. GET INFORMED NOT AFRAID.


Mandatory Subjects
Mandatory subjects of bargaining are issues of wages, hours and working conditions.
The following are examples of mandatory subjects of bargaining:
• arbitration • overtime premiums
• bargaining unit work • pay for time spent on union business
• bereavement leave • pay for training
• bonuses • pension for current employees
• clothing and tool allowances • premium pay for Sundays & holidays
• cost-of-living adjustments (COLA) • profit-sharing
• dental and vision plans • promotions
• discharge and discipline • red-circle pay
• discounts on company products • rest and lunch periods
• dues check-off clauses • salaries
• equity pay adjustments • shop or plant rules
• grievance procedures • sickness and accident plans
• holiday pay • testing of employees
• hours of work • transfers
• incentive pay • tuition reimbursement
• jury duty pay • union shop or other union security
• layoffs and recalls clauses (unless state law prohibits)
• legal services plans • vacation pay
• life insurance • wages
• management's rights clauses • workloads
• medical insurance • work schedules
The parties have a statutory duty (obligation) to bargain over mandatory subjects of
bargaining at the request of either party. Mandatory subjects of bargaining may be
bargained to impasse.

the position of Lt. is an appointed position and therefore an administrative position which is not governed under the union. Sgt. on the other hand is a tested position therefore it falls under the union and Sgt.'s can have thier own representation separate from corporals and deputies since they are supervisors if they wish. when the sheriff changed Lt. from a tested position to an appointed position Lt's no long fell into the category to be part of a union if lcso chose to unionize.

as for health insurance maybe you should call Holly's office and inquire the going rate for coverage. I did. I asked how much a single person pays for coverage and it cost $682.00 give or take a few pennies for coverage for a single person for health insurance. now that does not include dental which is $42.00 a month. that is under the self insured plan. add a wife and a couple of kids. plus union dues $$$$$$$$$$ oh, gas to pic up yur pool car, and try to get a car to work a detail? you younger guys probably don't remember what that was like, when you had to wait 3-5 years for a take home, you were lucky if Lt. Kitchens gave you a 4 hour detail, then you had to beg, some one to to let you use thier take home car or a pool car if there was an extra one at the sub.

the same people that are complaining now are the same people who complained before and pushed to elect Mike Scott? now your complaining about the same issues. times are bad all over the United States, not just LCSO, 1 out of 58 homes in Lee County are in foreclosure! GM and Chysler are going under, Six Flags just filed chaper 11, 650,000 people are out of work.

Be grateful you have a job, good health, insurance, a take home car and dont pay for gas, plus they give you all your clothes except your underwear and socks!!!!!

when the resession is over or the next election comes, run for Sheriff!

God Grant you the Serenity to Accept the Things YOU cannot Change.
Change the things you can, and the WISDOM to Know the Difference!
:wink: :cop:

It appears the individuals who continue to challenge the validity of a union, can't help but compare law enforcement officers to the factory workers of GM and Chrysler. I ask them why is that?

I don't see how we are comparable. I can't remember the last time I heard of a factory worker patrolling the streets, late at night, while their families tucked themselves in. I can't remember the last time a factory worker was involved in a fight for his life, after trying to apprehend a robbery suspect or homicide suspect. I can't remember the last time it was Christmas morning and the factory workers were expected to be working regardless of the circumstances. I don't remember the last time a factory worker was the first responder on scene to bring life back, to a toddler's limp body, after life of falling in pool.

I do however, remember car factories shutting down because of work strikes, and car companies voluntarily shutting factories down because of the end of a particular model. I don't remember the last time a police station shutdown for a month or so just to save money.

The point is, being a police officer is not a regular 9-5 job. You should believe this is a prestigious career, that most would be unable to do, and most can not live without. I ask you to think about that the next time you compare an officer to factory worker. Not that officers are better, just that more is expected of officer. In turn you should expect that your community wants to take care of you, but you need to have the ability to voice what is important to you, in a collective unit. Don't expect to be taken care of without a voice.

[getoutahere]

the position of Lt. is an appointed position and therefore an administrative position which is not governed under the union. Sgt. on the other hand is a tested position therefore it falls under the union and Sgt.'s can have thier own representation separate from corporals and deputies since they are supervisors if they wish. when the sheriff changed Lt. from a tested position to an appointed position Lt's no long fell into the category to be part of a union if lcso chose to unionize.

as for health insurance maybe you should call Holly's office and inquire the going rate for coverage. I did. I asked how much a single person pays for coverage and it cost $682.00 give or take a few pennies for coverage for a single person for health insurance. now that does not include dental which is $42.00 a month. that is under the self insured plan. add a wife and a couple of kids. plus union dues $$$$$$$$$$ oh, gas to pic up yur pool car, and try to get a car to work a detail? you younger guys probably don't remember what that was like, when you had to wait 3-5 years for a take home, you were lucky if Lt. Kitchens gave you a 4 hour detail, then you had to beg, some one to to let you use thier take home car or a pool car if there was an extra one at the sub.

the same people that are complaining now are the same people who complained before and pushed to elect Mike Scott? now your complaining about the same issues. times are bad all over the United States, not just LCSO, 1 out of 58 homes in Lee County are in foreclosure! GM and Chysler are going under, Six Flags just filed chaper 11, 650,000 people are out of work.

Be grateful you have a job, good health, insurance, a take home car and dont pay for gas, plus they give you all your clothes except your underwear and socks!!!!!

when the resession is over or the next election comes, run for Sheriff!

God Grant you the Serenity to Accept the Things YOU cannot Change.
Change the things you can, and the WISDOM to Know the Difference!
:wink: :cop:


STATE HEALTH FACTS
STATE RANKINGS
1 Data from the U.S. Census Bureau; includes state
premium tax collected from all types of insurance
companies, including health insurance.
2 Data from the U.S. Census Bureau, NAICS reports.
Direct jobs include those specifically found in the
health insurance industry; other insurance-related
jobs consist of those found in all insurance
industries, including the health insurance industry.
(see page 57 for a full description of job
categories.)
3A ranking of #1 indicates the lowest percentage of
uninsured.
Average Annual
Medicaid Payment
Per Enrollee . . . . . . . . . . . . . $3,621
21% Uninsured
48th
in uninsured rate3
34th in Medicaid payment per
enrollee
43rd in % of residents covered by
private insurance
28th in % of employers offering
health insurance
2007 Health Insurance: Overview and Economic Impact in the States 13
A People Covered by Private Insurance . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .11,318,000
PEOPLE WITH PRIVATE HEALTH INSURANCE COVERAGE
58% Self-
Insured
42% Fully-
Insured
94% Large
Employers
38% Small
Employers
A Individual Market Single . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .$2,949
A Individual Market Family . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .$4,282A Small Group Market Single . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .$4,140
A Small Group Market Family . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .$10,848
A Total State Premium Taxes Collected
from Insurance Companies1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .$764,559,000
A Payroll Direct Jobs . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .$1,249,130,000
A Payroll Other Insurance-Related Jobs . . . . . . . .$2,687,879,000
A Average Wage Direct Jobs . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .$52,317
A Average Wage Other Insurance-Related Jobs . . . . . . . . .$45,664
23,876 Direct
Jobs
82,738 Total
Jobs
58,862 Other Insurance-
Related Jobs
PERCENT OF EMPLOYERS OFFERING HEALTH INSURANCE
AVERAGE ANNUAL HEALTH INSURANCE PREMIUMS
JOBS IN HEALTH INSURANCE INDUSTRY 2
FLORIDA


Okay. Now you see what the facts say a family of 0f 4.5 is paying for health and dental. That comes out to about 150 +/- a pay period. Big hit withouta pay raise. Now lets say that a apy schedule that is commensurate with our one of our neighboring agencies is adopted. A ten year deputy would make 70 k per year. Yes that is true. A ten year FMPD patrolman goes to 70 K this july as a result of collective bargaining. A ten year LCSO Deputy makes about 55 K (actually it is less but the math is easier). No argument that this a difference of 15 thousand dollars per year. 15 k divided by 26 pay periods equals about 575.00. Subtract your premium payment of 150 dollars and your gros taxable income just increased by 425 dollars per pay period or about 11 thousand gross or about 9000 net cash in your pocket. Now factor that in to a 10 year Deputy’s career and presume he or she will retire in 15 years that turns into a 135,000 career benefit.

Before anyone goes crazy and says “ Small market family pays 10 k a year”. That data is for an individual who calls up Blue Cross and asks for insurance for his family. It does not represent group policies.

Now look at FRS. On the 55k your annual salary is 41 k per year in retirement. On 70 K your retirement income is 52.5 k . Now look at the three percent COLA you receive in FRS every July. On the latter you receive 1575 on your firs raise and 1230 on the former. Of course the 3% compounds on the prior years raise.

Who says that a person who wants to unionize is not grateful for their employment? I am confident that the Deputies of the Lee County Sheriff are very grateful for their jobs. They would like to see the gratitude come their way instead of to civilians who receive close to ten thousand dollar a year raises. Some closer to twenty thousand. Perhaps they just want some say in how they are treated in the workplace. Perhaps they want a balance of power. Perhaps they want legal representation. Perhaps they are willing to pay a price for all of this. Men and women died to ensure that the Deputies of the Lee County Sheriff along with every tax paying citizen of this country have that right. Who are you to judge them?

Run for Sheriff? What the hell kind of response is that? How is that even relative to a unionization effort?

Be grateful you have a job, good health, insurance, a take home car and dont pay for gas, plus they give you all your clothes except your underwear and socks!!!!! This is the attitude that has kept us from getting ahead. "Oh well, I'll just take it in the ass because after all I am lucky to have a job at all, right?" Forget that! That's the old and sad way, grampa. A new generation of educated, motivated, urban deputies is here to bring this country ass Mayberry department into the 21st Century.



God Grant you the Serenity to Accept the Things YOU cannot Change.
Change the things you can, and the WISDOM to Know the Difference!
:wink: :cop: EXACTLY! That's what we are doing. Like generations of Americans before us we, the workers, are seizing the moment and changing the things we can! Unions are American. Unions are patriotic. Stand up for your rights.