Just thinking aloud again......

So, I hear that the sheriff got a new helicopter......I would think it would be pretty expensive to operate given the cost of a pilot, fuel, maintenance, etc... I guess that we have to continue working with 3 or 4 persons to a shift, no OT, and no raises, but we sure need a helicopter. It's not like we can use AIR 1 anytime we need, huh.

Another thing, what’s up with the OT issue? Some individuals are allowed OT, but patrol operations have to continue flexing off the overtime even though we have to work at below safe staffing to flex the time. I’m not sure, but isn’t it illegal to make it mandatory for personal to flex OT at a rate less than what they would be getting? Seems like it would be against federal labor laws. I do believe that Escambia just had a lawsuit for something just like this. Not sure just an observation. I would much rather go back to the old system and accumulate some comp time instead of having to flex a few hours here and there.

The good thing is that it’s almost election time……………….SHOW ME DA MONEY and stop wasting it on BS.

Buy a boat.

Take the sheriff out fishing on your new boat.

Supply plenty of refreshments.

Maybe he'll put you on the elite OT list.

cool we got a helo...That's freaking awsome.

You guys are such whiners. Or at least, the first poster is.

How about a different point of view... this helicopter was DONATED, so why not say to yourselves, "Wow, self, our Sheriff was looking out for us enough that he got us another tool to use in this job. Now we wont have to depend on another agency so much."

There is always a bright side...try to find it every now and then. I sympathize with your gripes about pay, but here's another idea...come over to ECSO and get a nice fat raise, and only a 40 hour FTO program if you have prior experience.

There are solutions to everything, if you are willing to try.

I also here prior experience gets you a sign on bonus but that may be rumor. You people should call and ask if interested. The ECSO has its problems and the next election is bound to be very interesting to say the least. Still not a bad place to work though.

Hey Escambia Deputy,
The sheriff has never cared about anyone other than himself. He came from your agency, want him back. Maybe he could bring a few Chevy's with him.

Waaaaa.

So what if you dont htink he cares about you enough. he is a politician...did you expect anything else? Make the best of it, or if the best isnt acceptable enough to you, then leave. Lots of other places are hiring.

Free helicopter, new cars (even if they are Chevys).... good grief, sounds like he is making at least some effort.

Nah, y'all can keep him.

How many times have you thanked him for what he did do for you?

ECSO, maybe you should worry about your own problems and quit worrying about thanks being passed out at SRSO. From the looks of the papers (arrest column) you should be councelling your own deputies.

Santa Rosa deputies seem to have valid complaints. Many at ECSO were happy to give let SR have their sheriff. It lowered the suction level in the ECSO main office by one. Unfortunately, there were others standing in line to take his place.

I heard SRSO's new helo will NOT be used on for patrol functions, true?

I heard the same thing. I know the SRSO doesn't pay a dime to help the ECSO out with their heicopter so it would be kind of silly for us to think that we can still use their helicopter because Wendell doesn't want to make ours a full fledged LEO bird.

We better hope the one Wendell just procured doesn’t evolve into the mini air force like McNesby’s. A close friend who works there tells me that their program suck over two million a year out of their budget. With us already being threatened with cutbacks because of the insurance and property tax crisis, we don’t the added expense of a squad of helicopters that cost hundreds of dollars an hour to maintain and operate.

I know for a fact that they don't cost HUNDREDS of dollars an hour to fly. They have a guy from Whiting Field that does their maintenance for around $25-30 dollars an hour. They also get their fuel from the military which is cheaper than what we can get regular gasoline for our cars per gallon.

So Wendell's gonna pay OT instead of flexing with the money he's saving on his new toy?

The Sheriff's Office now has a chopper that will NOT be used for patrol. What's new? Patrol is the first line of the agency, the back bone for everything that happens but to no suprised, the first that gets the shaft. Patrol officers are the ones that gets second rate equipment, such as used, out of date computers. The new Impalas are death traps although the so-called experts that do not drive them say they are the best for fuel economy and maintenence. Thats an easy sell since the the Lt. in fleet must have gotten a great deal on that new personal truck with the SO purchase of the Impalas. Patrol deputies are the ones that have to do EVERYTHING because the it makes everyone else's lives easier. There are way too many chiefs and not enough Indians. The "command staff" are always finding ways to micromanage the patrol officers to include making new policies. The Sheriff and his "command staff" look for anything to get a deputy disciplined. All it takes is one phone call from from of the Sheriff's friends or supporters and that deputy is screwed from the get go. It's not even election year. Next year it will only get worse. Remember the last time? Dont support him and you'll either be fired or blackballed. Remember patrol deputies, everything gets dumped on you. Thank God I left when I did.

i hope the door hit you as you walked out.

Does your agency even have a pilot? Or have they not thought of that yet?

I hear they are going to contract with ECSO pilots and observers to be on call for when they need them.

I don't know about the observer part but I hear that at least one pilot from the ECSO is going to help out with flying on a VOLUNTEER basis only, meaning NON PAID, so you guys can calm down a bit.

Your "close friend" at the ECSO is not even close to being correct regarding the aviation budget. The budget is SIGNIFICANTLY less than 2 million. They buy their fuel and parts through gov. programs at substantial savings compared to what civilian vendors charge. If they had a 2 million dollar budget they wouldn't be flying 1970's vintage helicopters.

If your admin thinks that having a helicopter to use on an "emergency call out only" basis will help your agency, then they are sadly mistaken.

An agency that acquires a helicopter MUST train with that asset to obtain the results that made the aircraft a necessity in the first place. You can not expect to have a volunteer pilot show up to the hangar within a 30 minute response time and be on scene in under an hour. It is no difference than the "Golden Hour" standard used in EMS. The faster the aircraft can arrive on scene from the time of the crime the better the chance of apprehension. Each minute passing is another block your perimeter must expand!

Then if you do not train your road personnel and k-9 teams with the use of the helicopter in search techniques, perimeter techniques and apprehension techniques you are again wasting your time! Add to that no FLIR capabilities and you might as well drive down the road using your PA and asking for the suspect to please come out of hiding and give theirself up.

I will not even address the pilot issues in regards to training and experience. Your agency may have just opened Pandora's Box for liability!!

If an agency is not fully committed to support the aircraft, staff and training then that agency is wasting everyone's time. You also generate a breeding ground for negative opinion from the public and troops by operating an aircraft that consistantly lacks a positive end rersult.

It does not matter if ECSO donated the helicopter to your agency. The costs to operate it without the proper support may cost your agency more than dollars in the long run.... GOOD LUCK!

ECSO didn't donate the helicopter--another county did. All of what you say is true and are issues that will need to be addressed. From what I've been told, the aircraft will rarely be used for call outs. I'm under the impression it will be used for marijuanna eradication along with other routine (non-urgent) missions. There is at least 1 other agency in the panhandle that uses their helicopters for the same missions and don't seem to have any problems.
As far as liability goes--what exactly are you talking about? Please explain the "Pandora's box" comment.
Hopefully, Sheriff Hall is talking to the other LEO agencies that have air assets and is getting usefull info. The smart move would be to adopt a "crawl, walk, run" mentality to figure out how to best employ it as an asset.

To use the aircraft for marijuana eradication as a primary role will be hard to justify when the State of Florida provides this service for free through the Florida Air Guard unit in Jacksonville. That unit is known as the RAID Unit and there mission is to respond to any county in the state that needs an aerial search for marijuana. The service is free and they will stay as long as it takes to complete the mission.

If your aircraft will compliment that role then that is a good thing but the aircraft needs to be used for other non-emergency roles to produce positive results and support. I am assuming that there is no night capability with the aircraft and this is where you earn your keep in law enforcement aviation. By limiting yourself to a day time role only without emergency responses to support the road units, your total use of the helicopter is now down to about 20% at best. Compare that with the cost to operate and the figures will not justify the end result. (Overall benefit for the community)

In order to justify the money to operate, you must show that the benefits to property, life and deputies far outweigh any cost factors involved to support it. Without this support any money, time or equipment invested will be wasted in the public’s eyes.

As far as Pandora’s Box in liability, the pilot holds the Sheriff in the palm of his hand. The selection of the pilot can be either a blessing for the agency or a disaster. Insurance alone will be figured on numerous factors, too many to mention here. Pilot skills, training, qualification and recurrent training will determine how much liability you incur and expense you will incur as an agency.

Then you have maintenance issues. The pilot can fly the aircraft in a way that will make the maintenance reasonable or put you out of business within 6 months. Then you have the issue of who will provide the maintenance…

Do not get me wrong about this issue. Having an aircraft within the agency can be a blessing to even the smallest offices. The asset is considered a force multiplier due to the response times to calls, ability to control and command from the air, deterrent to crimes and intimidation factor during escalating situations, life saving during disasters, fire season, missing persons and more… Properly done an agency could operate the aircraft for a few hundred dollars an hour. In today’s world of shrinking budgets and shortage of manpower, a properly utilized aircraft can reverse an agencies lack of effectiveness due to these issues. In budget terms, it can be far cheaper to fund one helicopter than cover all the costs involved in maintaining 10 deputies.

Bottom line, I would suggest that your command staff or the senior person who will over-see this operation spend some time at a functioning, effective air unit (At least a week) to see first hand how things should be done. Join ALEA, network and attend the conference in Orlando in July. Attend the classes and get some real training on how to effectively operate an aviation asset.

Getting the aircraft is the easy part. Learning to keep it is the real challenge.

Again best of luck…

I respectfully disagree with your opinion that the bird will not be useful without constant incorporation and training with patrol.

The helicopter is not intended for patrol work, but can still be useful for many other roles. Recruiting, public relations (attendance at schools and job fairs), hurricane and natural disaster response, aerial photograhy and surveillance, ....the list goes on.

As for pilot profeciency, the chopper will initially be staffed by pilots from ECSO's air unit, which is full-time and they maintain currency there.

I agree that a full-time operation is by far the best, but this is a step in the right direction.

“The helicopter is not intended for patrol work, but can still be useful for many other roles. Recruiting, public relations (attendance at schools and job fairs), hurricane and natural disaster response, aerial photograhy and surveillance, ....the list goes on.”...

You are kidding me right??

Recruiting and public relations? Yea ok… The first thing that I get asked when I have our helicopter at a recruiting event or static display is “How many bad people do we put in jail?” That will be embarrassing when you tell them that you do not put bad people in jail or locate lost people with the helicopter… we just have it to make us look good (False Advertising)

Hurricanes and natural disasters? Who do you think you will be communicating with? Unless you train with road patrol, k-9, and numerous other elements in and out of your agency, you are wasting everyone’s time. They will not know what you need, how you need it and you will not be able to communicate to other units in a timely fashion without wasting valuable time and resources. When I flew after the hurricanes, we were up for 6 hour legs and radio communications were difficult at best, no power, no street signs etc… You have no clue what you’re in for.

Also, if you do not support road now, how will you be able to do it then? Do you really think another agency can afford to loan you a pilot when they will have their own problems to worry about?

Surveillance and photo flights? Have you ever flown a surveillance mission? Do you know what that involves? And try doing it with a helicopter… It can be done but we have to fly 1 to 2 miles away (Noise) and use the zoom lens on the FLIR to track…again it takes time and practice to do this.

The first priority for your aircraft has to be road patrol. That is the backbone of your agency! Every job other than road patrol in your agency exists ONLY as a support element of that position. If your agency does not view this then you have deep problems with your admin.

I am not saying this to be mean, hateful or a smarta$$l but I am stating this because it is the truth. If you think for one minute that the citizens or deputies of your county will support a helicopter budget (No matter how small it is) for anything other than what the main role should be then you are sadly mistaken.

I can tell you have no experience in law enforcement aviation. You too will learn the hard way. I have 17 years flying law enforcement aircraft and missions. We see your type come and go every year. When you are serious about having an aviation asset and not a Public Relations TOY, join ALEA and learn what an asset can really do for your deputies and citizens of your county. Only then will your admin be serious about doing real police work and not just looking like it.

By the way, it is NOT a chopper…it is a helicopter or aircraft. It does not chop anything. That’s like calling you a copper.

One other thing-

I guess you do not train with your weapon either. Do you just carry it to look good?

You must not be from NWFl, FL Sheriff Pilot. It was obvious by your comments that patrol should be the backbone of every agency. Unfortunately, up here, patrol is the armpit of most agencies. Sad but true. All the new toys go to high paid contract employees and specialty units...just like it sounds like this "chopper" will be used as a PR tool to show how innovative the department has become.

If our Sheriffs (yes, thats plural, not just SRSO's sheriff) would sell some of the toys and dump some of the high paid admin positions, they might have some extra bucks to fund hiring a few more officers to supplement patrol shifts and equipment.

Speaking of admin positions, who do you think will be in charge of the bird? Lets' see if anyone can answer this complex question. This man has never spent one day in patrol. His expertise is sitting behind a desk and making bad decisons. The only job hazard is spilling coffee or runing out of toilet paper. His countless occasions of butt kissing has allowed him to get a high salary while riding the coat tails of several administrations. He is placed in command of many functions but has not idea how to perform these functions, much less command them. He has no common sense. His hobbie include supervisor inquiries, disciplinary actions, butt kissing and is one half of the inspiration of Beavis and Butthead. Who is he? The guy who will most likely be placed in charge of the helicoptor.

FL Sheriff Pilot, get over yourself. Taking offense to it being called a "chopper", but it is ok to call it a bird? Good grief.

We do not all have the resources of the Orange county SO. We have to make the bes tof what we have, and what we DO have, is the start of a good thing. I dont know how much people like you will bring down morale, but you are doing a disservice to your fellow LEOs by trashing the program.

High Hopes,

I never called it a bird either...read my post. I said it is a helicopter or aircraft.

Disservice.... Your agency is making your acquisition of an asset a disservice to your own people. If you have the funds to fly it as a recruiting toy, photo flights, then you have the funds to use it for what it should be used for... valuable support of the road deputies in an effort to accomplish their mission, safely and effectively! You are trashing your deputies by denying them a tool that could help them!!

Morale… I HELP the moral of my agency when they call for help we arrive on-scene and safely direct the ground units to the suspect or guide them to a missing person. I can not tell you how many times I have seen something and told the deputy on the ground which saved their life or resulted in the lack of injury or crash to a deputy. Not to even mention chasing a felony suspect who was fleeing on foot and hover over them until a deputy could arrive and affect an arrest.

The lack of morale exists at your agency because of the mind-set of your admin, not me. Do not come here and try to pass off to your comrades that an outsider is to blame for lack of morale at your agency. Take your head out of the sand and read what your deputies are writing prior to me making my statements based on poor decisions. Your deputies are the ones who will NOT benefit from the acquisition of this aircraft, instead be embarrassed that your admin is using it as a toy to show off, never using it to support what it was intended for. What a joke…

You sir do not have a clue how to use an aviation asset. It is people like you who create a negative impression of the importance of having a helicopter in law enforcement. We have to work that much harder to reverse the negative opinion that a helicopter is not a toy but a valuable tool in fighting crime, not recruiting.

As I stated before, a helicopter is a force multiplier. Three studies were performed at three universities which all resulted in the same conclusion: Having ONE helicopter in the air is like having an additional 10 deputies on the ground. (Not 10 additional photographers or recruiters) Can you even contemplate how much more efficient and safe your agency would be if you utilize this aircraft the way it should be used?

Instead of putting me down for trying to help you retain your aircraft, why don’t you at least call around to some other aviation units and find out for yourself if what I am saying is true! Maybe if you use it the way it should be used, you will find support from the public and deputies for a bigger budget but I can guaruntee that you will NEVER get support from the way you have stated that you will use it!

On a second note, if I was a SRSO deputy and I got hurt after knowing the agancy had a helicopter that could have been utilized in the manner that all other agencies use a helicopter; my family would own your county due to negligence by your Sheriff...think about that...

Helos cover more ground than a slow ass car with a fat ass behind the steering wheel.

FL Sheriff, Thanks for your informative postings. It is obvious you know what you are talking about and illustrate some very good points. What's happened at this agency is nothing that hasn't occurred elsewhere and you already hit the nail on the head:

"The first priority for your aircraft has to be road patrol. That is the backbone of your agency! Every job other than road patrol in your agency exists ONLY as a support element of that position. If your agency does not view this then you have deep problems with your admin."

Command and "Support" Staff forget their proper place which is to "Support" your road deputies. Without THEM, none of you are needed!

What is the big deal, so we got a helicopter? Give them time to put it into service i.e. find a pilot, get it painted make the big reveal to the public and media. Stop grousing about the Sheriff's intentions if you really have no idea what they actualy are. We could use a helicopter with FLIR capability, lord knows we spend enough time chasing people around Santa Rosa County on foot. It would be nice to cut down the time spent looking for the perps who managed to bail and disappear into the dark.

Any word on what, if anything, we are going to do with our helocopter? At least we have other options again. I hear FDLE has a plane in Pensacola now we can use. Maybe we can use FDLE to make some new cultivation cases to raise money for our air wing.

How many times have you thanked him for what he did do for you?


I have thank the Sheriff Plenty for ****ing me over and making me rich. I've been thank him so much I have contributed $1500 to someone else who is running against him.