UNION NEWS

[DAVIE634]

This new thread is to be used for union news only. Please do not post departmental criticism, personal attacks etc... This will be used to discuss union matters, town politics as it pertains to the union, contract negotiations, etc... Please don't abuse it.
Thanx'

SD

Here's a union related topic. Why do the union meetings suck so bad ? All 5 people talking at once. No sense of order. I have no idea why no one shows up.

[DAVIE634]

Here's a union related topic. Why do the union meetings suck so bad ? All 5 people talking at once. No sense of order. I have no idea why no one shows up.

The last time I checked, the meetings were pretty orderly. During the last meeting, the president spoke on the topic concerning the election, the buy-back time in the pension, a few things relating to the contract, and the poor response of the surveys sent out. After each topic, the body was allowed to make comments. After the president spoke, each board member was asked if they had any topics to discuss. After their comments, the body once again discussed the topics in an orderly fasion. Are you sure we were at the same meeting. This isn't the U.S. Congress where we have to wait our turn to make a comment after we're called on.

we need to show a strong visibility next tues. we hope that all of you that can/should be available to particapate in this election do so and ensure a positive outcome. its 7-7pm so everyone should be able to spare a few hours

[DAVIE634]

The state FOP will be hosting a class dealing with Offcier rights in the workplace, and FDLE officer de-certification. The class is scheduled for 8a-5p on Mon. June 12th at the Palm Beach Gardens Marriot. If you are interested in attending, please see the union board for information. The course is elegible for 8 hours of mandatory re-training.

TSD

What's the stautus of the FOP lodge 100 site ? I'm unable to find it.

[DAVIE634]

What's the stautus of the FOP lodge 100 site ? I'm unable to find it.

The web site is presently under construction. I will post a message when it is up. We have only just gotten the domain name, and are searching for someone who is talented at web page building.

TSD

When was the last time that you were at a meeting? I've been at the last 18 and I can't remember the last time we had five people talking at once. I think you should back up your assertions with examples. Give me a date or an incident. As far as the meetings sucking, we did run out of pizza at the last one...so that might be something.

[DAVIE634]

The April union meeting will be held on the 19th at 1800 hrs. following detail bid.

[DAVIE634]

tomorrow @ 1800 hrs.

IS THIS THE PBA MEETING ?

[DAVIE634]

The following Bills have passed both the Senate and House of the Florida Legislature. They only wait for the governor's sugnature. Please make yourselves aware of these things the state lodge has fought for.

TSD

1. House Bill 45/Senate Bill 746 ? Relating to Worker?s Comp./First Responders

This bill adds several infectious diseases and contact with toxic/hazardous substances to the presumption that the contact is the result of a line of duty injury and should be covered by Worker?s Comp.

Through CS/SB 746 and CS/HB 45, the FOP sought the assistance of the Florida Legislature to address these issues and provide Workers? Compensation benefits comparable to their injuries in the ?First Responders? bill by creating 112.1815, F.S., defining ?First Responders? to mean a law enforcement officer, a firefighter, an emergency medical technician or paramedic or volunteer firefighter for the purposes of determining benefits relating to employment related accidents and injuries for a First Responder. This bill lowers the burden or standard of proof by showing that exposure to a substance or disease existed in the workplace and caused the injury.



2. House Bill 409 ? Mandatory Adjudication for Murder/Assaulting an Officer

This bill is strongly supported by the FOP, Police Chiefs and Sheriffs. It provides language that anyone convicted of 10 violent acts against a law enforcement officer are to be adjudicated guilty (rather than adjudication withheld) and sentenced for the offense.



3. House Bill 143 ? Relating to the Right to Carry (U.S. HR 218)

This bill establishes an FDLE statewide standard firearms proficiency course and provides that FDLE certified firearms instructors may issue a verification or ?qualification? card to retired officers upon completion of the course in order to comply with HR 218.



4. House Bill 123 ? Addresses the Officer?s Bill of Rights in regards to the taking of witness statements during an internal administrative investigation. Officers will be interviewed last and after being provided with all applicable witness statements and information (Discovery).





5. House Bill 723/Senate Bill 690 ? Sworn Statements/Perjury

The Internal Affairs investigator and the subject officer will sign a sworn statement pursuant to the Officer?s Bill of Rights. The person preparing an investigative report will verify that the contents of the report are true an accurate under penalty of perjury.



These bills are important to all officers. Write a short polite email to Governor Crist?s staff: Towsend.frasier@myflorida.com, Head of Legislative Affairs and george.lemieux@myflorida.com the Governor?s Chief of Staff, an ask him to sign these 5 bills into law.

[Delta 5]

If you are interested in a full accounting of what took place during the 2007 legislative session (Law Enforcement related), please contact me and I will gladly give you a copy that was provided to me (along with an explanation of how I obtained the information and how you could have a copy sent to you automatically as well).

Victor 1

2. House Bill 409 ? Mandatory Adjudication for Murder/Assaulting an Officer

This bill is strongly supported by the FOP, Police Chiefs and Sheriffs. It provides language that anyone convicted of 10 violent acts against a law enforcement officer are to be adjudicated guilty (rather than adjudication withheld) and sentenced for the offense.

Am I reading this right!?!? 10 convictions?!?! I like the idea and all but why can't this happen after 2 or 3? How many criminals would this really pertain to????

We're gonna give these scumbags 10 opportunities at kicking our ass and/or killing us before we get serious? Maybe I'm understanding this wrong if anyone can clarify... :?:

fop this thursday please all should attend very important

should people who are still on probation attend union meetings or should they wait until they are off of probation?

should people who are still on probation attend union meetings or should they wait until they are off of probation?

If you pay union dues every two weeks and you want to go to a meeting, then go. Best thing to do is to sit and listen. Don't say anything unless you are asked something.

the meeting is very very important so please go whether your new or a 20 yr vet

should people who are still on probation attend union meetings or should they wait until they are off of probation?

If you pay union dues every two weeks and you want to go to a meeting, then go. Best thing to do is to sit and listen. Don't say anything unless you are asked something.

Who the hell are you? Just because a person is new doesn?t mean he doesn?t have a voice. Another example of someone trying to control and have the union for himself.

i hear they gonna promote from the botom of the list and name them admirals we also gonna be working 2 15s 2 off or 14 2 1/2 days say it aint so moe

Please attend the meeting on thurs 6 pm. Many rumors,issues,etc.. will be addressed and open for debate/discussion. Also, the f dept. met and voted on a final proposal last night so we will try to find out as much info as possible before the meeting to discuss what they are requestingand what they are being told.

Part of the new deal must include new generals.

and Admiral Cornwalis's

I would like to know the idiot who thinks people on probation should not attend meeting, so i can call him an idiot to his face. j__koff!!!

[DAVIE634]

the meeting scheduled for 08/16 has been postponed due to ongoing contract talks with the city.

Please attend the meeting on thurs 6 pm. Many rumors,issues,etc.. will be addressed and open for debate/discussion. Also, the f dept. met and voted on a final proposal last night so we will try to find out as much info as possible before the meeting to discuss what they are requestingand what they are being told.

Hey 676. Is there free pizza? I prefer arroz con pollo but I have a merry round friend who said he would only attend if pizza is served.

The union meeting was postponed because you guys ar ein contract talks with the city???? It is hard enough getting a decent amount of people at these meetings and now you are postponing it ?? Why don't you also post this info around the PD somewhere or pass union news like this around on laptops or a b-board somewhere also??? This better be a whopper of a contract if pizza night was postponed/....

Because of on-going talks? Isn't that even more of a reason that we should have a meeting? I thought that is what the meetings were for, to update the membership. Or was the meeting postponed because 676 and 634 were scared to hold the meeting alone?

It seems that these two people are not looking out for the membership. They are going to the brass and trying to come up with a shift schedule that suits them, ie. 20 people on 10 hour shift and the rest of road patrol on 12s. That seems ONE WAY to me.

What are they trying to pull over on us? Is it true that they are only looking out for themselves? It sure seems that way.

[DAVIE634]

To address some of the idiotic posts to the usual cowards that hide behind a screename:
"Why don't you also post this info around the PD somewhere or pass union news like this around on laptops or a b-board". Check your town email as well as your MDT. This is just another outlet to have an informed membership for those who may have not checked the other email communications. The pizza comment was humorous though.

"Because of on-going talks? Isn't that even more of a reason that we should have a meeting? I thought that is what the meetings were for, to update the membership. Or was the meeting postponed because 676 and 634 were scared to hold the meeting alone?

It seems that these two people are not looking out for the membership. They are going to the brass and trying to come up with a shift schedule that suits them, ie. 20 people on 10 hour shift and the rest of road patrol on 12s. That seems ONE WAY to me."

What are they trying to pull over on us? Is it true that they are only looking out for themselves? It sure seems that way.

This one really amazes me:
We have informed the membership what is going on to this point. I have repeatedly asked those with questions about the contract to seek one of us out and we will be happy to share what we know as many of you have done. I spoke to J.S. today at 1600 hours to find out the status of the meeting. It was his decision to postpone the meeting because WE are still waiting for a response from the town to schedule our next contract meeting. If we had a meeting, it would probably have lasted 10-15 minutes to give you the above information (and an additional 15 minutes to eat the pizza). J.S. decided that it would be a waste of everyones time. BTW, ML and MD are the only board members out of town to my knowledge.

As for the shift lay-outs, We have put the word out on several occasions to have shift proposals submitted by the membership. To date, only 3 have been submitted. If you have a suggestion "one-way", get off your lazy ass and submit it and stop hiding behind the screename. The "brass" have nothing to do with this at this point. Shimun has made it quite clear that he intends to allow the union to submit the schedule to the town for their approval, and decide if it will work. If you can't come up with a schedule but still have ideas, let us know. WE WANT SUGGESTIONS.

tsd

As for the shift lay-outs, We have put the word out on several occasions to have shift proposals submitted by the membership. To date, only 3 have been submitted. If you have a suggestion "one-way", get off your lazy arse and submit it and stop hiding behind the screename. The "brass" have nothing to do with this at this point. Shimun has made it quite clear that he intends to allow the union to submit the schedule to the town for their approval, and decide if it will work. If you can't come up with a schedule but still have ideas, let us know. WE WANT SUGGESTIONS.

Could we PLEASE post the schedule recommendations as of now so that before we go to council with our ideas we can vote on an appropriate schedule FOR EVERYONE?[/b]

That seems ONE WAY to me.

What are they trying to pull over on us? Is it true that they are only looking out for themselves? It sure seems that way.

OK CHIEF

Because of on-going talks? Isn't that even more of a reason that we should have a meeting? I thought that is what the meetings were for, to update the membership. Or was the meeting postponed because 676 and 634 were scared to hold the meeting alone?

It seems that these two people are not looking out for the membership. They are going to the brass and trying to come up with a shift schedule that suits them, ie. 20 people on 10 hour shift and the rest of road patrol on 12s. That seems ONE WAY to me.

What are they trying to pull over on us? Is it true that they are only looking out for themselves? It sure seems that way.

On us?? You tell em kermit

Could we PLEASE post the schedule recommendations as of now so that before we go to council with our ideas we can vote on an appropriate schedule FOR EVERYONE?[/b][/quote]

WHY DO THAT IT MAKES SENSE

I agree, this should be the time where we have MORE meetings. They should keep us MORE updated and be bringing us options. For example, if they are using the shift change to make the city happy then the membership should vote on what type of shift change... sliding weekends or not. Instead, the union members (all that already have all of the weekend) are making THEIR decisions for us.... Let the majority rule, THEN NO ONE CAN COMPLAIN. (well, I know they will but they won't have a reason to gripe) I certainly don't feel like my best interests are being looked out for. The messed up thing is that the union members MIGHT be helping me. Since there has been no meeting, i wouldn't know.... I can only assume the worst, a bunch of relatively senior guys padding their future. We WANT TO SEE WHAT YOU ARE DOING. You can tell us anything you want.... Open the books, let us see your requests and their responses..... It should not be a secret..... You are swinging ALL OF our careers around, let us have a say, or at least the knowledge of what is going on..... How do we know that the city isn't interested in the sliding weekends (or if they even care) but it's not an issue this contract because YOU don't want it.

LET US SEE THE QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS IN THE NEGOTIATIONS UNLESS YOU ARE HIDING SOMETHING.

The only secrets you should be keeping is the magic numbers that the union knows that they will settle at.....

in response to the bashing of the union, it is not always in the best interst of the union to come out in a public forum and explain everything. this is why they havent posted any information on this site, is my only explanation i can see.
the union should not be postponing any of the meetings especially when there are negotiations going on. the union board does not settle on the contract. they should have an idea what the members are wanting in the members contract. if this is the case, then they should know the bottom line and when to either bring the contract to the members for a vote for ratification or coming to the members advising that we should go to impasse.
my understanding is that only a few people actually informed the union of what they individually wanted to see changed or added to the current contract. so it seems the board unfortunately does not know what the majority of the membership in fact wants due to the lack of information from the members.

in response to them not representing the membership as a whole and looking out for their own interests, well that has yet to be seen due to the lack of information being brought to the membership. i have personally been advised by a board member that "we will only settle for this or settle for that." i took this as them advising me that as a senior officer, which this one was, they would only settle for the option that best suited them (i.e. weekends off for them).

i know everyone is bashing certain members for trying to come up with scheduling options, but that is what we should be hearing from the board. administration has already pretty much decided on the fact that we will be eventually going to 12 hour shifts regardless of what we vote on. this is called management rights.
the fact that the board is rumored to be thinking of the schedules that best suit them is inevitable due to only senior people being on the board as well as several sergeants.
is the department does have to goto 12 hour shifts, it should be a schedule that benefits THE MEMBERSHIP not the few select that are "senior". the fact that seniority doesnt play a role anywhere else in this department other than shift bid is unfortunate. senioroty should matter when it comes to promotions and specialty units and when it comes to getting overtime. unfortately this has been negotiated away in the past or never have been here in the first place.

either way, the members need to be informed as these negotiations are taking place. this needs to happen or the rumors that are flying about how the board is trying to screw all of us will keep happening and become worse by the day.

just my two cents.

LET US SEE THE QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS IN THE NEGOTIATIONS UNLESS YOU ARE HIDING SOMETHING.

The only secrets you should be keeping is the magic numbers that the union knows that they will settle at.....[/quote]

The unions requests were handed out at the last meeting(a while ago) so just get a copy of that from someone who went.

. How do we know that the city isn't interested in the sliding weekends (or if they even care) but it's not an issue this contract because YOU don't want it.

LET US SEE THE QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS IN THE NEGOTIATIONS UNLESS YOU ARE HIDING SOMETHING.

The only secrets you should be keeping is the magic numbers that the union knows that they will settle at.....[/quote]

Judging by your statement of concern, you are a newer employee.We work for a town, not a city. The town is run by the council. They're not interested in our schedules on a daily basis so a "sliding "schedule you may have had elsewhere is irrelevant to them. Also, since you are new here, you must be unaware that we vote as a group after a lengthy negotiation. The board will bring "us" the proposals and "we" will decide. Ask around , you will be informed that in the past, the town was informed of our decisions by unknown sources which caused obvious problems. That is why the rumors start flying and people jump off bridges so to speak. The contract will take months so relax and kick back, it will happen and again, we will vote. If you need immeadiate information, seek out a senior supervisor or officer/detective etc.... that has been here and they will fill you in on the process.

Listen, I was not bashing.... Not complaining...... Just curious as to why we would NOT have meetings during the most important time. When you leave people hanging it tends to breed rumors and fear. Let us know what you are up to. A little bit more than, "MEETING CANCELLED DUE TO NEGOTIATIONS"

Many times that is percieved as "I'm busy trying to make the best contract for ME". This is completly avoidable if you just talk to us, tell us where we are at instead of, "i can't talk about it". That's great for people in the know but it leaves us all out to dry and depending on some people that we don't all have that much trust in.

Why is it that everytime anyone brings up a legitmate concern on the "union information" thread they get accused of complaining and "not knowing anything" Isn't that your job as a VOLUNTARY leader for us, to make it make sense to us. I posted my concern with respect and without name calling or bringing up old dirt on people. ..... Way to show me what being a part of this union means. PAY YOUR DUES, BE QUIET AND I'LL TELL YOU WHAT YOU GET. That's just not how it's supposed to work.

Again, respectfully.

[DAVIE634]

I have read the threads and would like to address some things. First of all, the things that the union is asking for were suggested by the membership. If you recall, 162 wish lists were sent out. Of those, 28 were sent back with suggestions. Out of those 28, I believe that nearly half were returned by supervisors. At the following meeting, the union's proposals were printed and distributed to those attending the meeting (as pointed out by "old timer"). If you chose not to attend the meeting and become educated as to our proposals, I can't help you. Since I have been on the board, I have tried to keep this union as transparent as possible, because WE as a union should decide our course, not the exec. board. I have always been available to discuss issues with anyone who has approached me. I have taken it upon myself after approval from the pres. to discuss things on this site, for those who cannot attend all of the meetings/pizza parties.

Another thing that I feel needs to be addressed is the process of contract negotiations to give some of you an insight as to why we cancel meetings. The first step was to get the proposal to the town. The town then submits a proposal which outlines what they want to modify in the current contract as well as modifications to our new proposals. We then go back and modify or reject their modifications and address other issues that we both agree on. The town then does the same thing to us... It is a back and forth game that we play with them. To this point, the negotiations have been going well for the most part. There are only 2 main things left to discuss and they are the shifts and raises.

As to the shifts, we welcome any more suggestions. The shift proposal that I submitted (combination 12's/10's)was as a union member, not a board member. As previously stated, anyone can submit a proposal and the town is willing to look at it. I will also be submitting another proposal that has three 12hr shifts per day. If members neglect to submit their proposals then there is no room for *****ing when they get stuck on something that they don't want to work. I will say however, that we are leaning toward permanent days off as a benefit to seniority, as has been in the past.

tsd

[DAVIE634]

I forgot to add that there WILL be a meeting on Tuesday 08/21 at 1800 hours to get everyone up to date.

in response, the whole 12/10 shift proposal was never even brought to any of the members or was kept to a "select" few. who does this proposal benefit? i would venture to say that only the senior officers would be the ones working the 5 10's based on seniority.
the fact that you would suggest three 12 hours shifts in one day shows that you dont understand the concept. 10 hour shifts cost the most, 8 hour shift second, and 12 hour shifts cost the least to the town. the reason 12 hour shifts cost the least is because they only have to staff 2 platoons of 2 squads each.....not three. the overlap in three 12 hour shifts would be ridiculous.
the two other schedules that have been outright rejected openly by board members is either the
3-2-2-3.....which is work 3, off 2, work 2, off 3. this is every other weekend off for EVERY MEMBER.
the other is the 4-3-3-4......work 4, off 3, work 3, off 4. this is the same every other weekend off but you are working four 12 hour shifts during one of the weeks..... al ong work week.
again. you need to take a deep breath, take a big step back, and look at this from a distance outside of "I" AND "WE" (meaning the board). this is bigger than the 7-10 of you. or as it sounds the 3-4 of you that are taking upon yourselves to propose things for the majority that only the SENIORITY wants. this is not representation of the whole nor is it in the best interest of the union as a whole.
most people should already know how a contract negotiation works. is a give and take. that is a given. the fact that you go back and forth about this is not a legitamate reason to not discuss these issues or to keep them from the members until "you" feel it is a good enough contract to bring to us. the fact that you have the members up to speed is the whole point, so you have power as a whole, not a select few. and as it stands right now, i think you would have a hard time having the majority stand together on anyting right now because of the decention.
again just my two cents.

The reason seniority exists in a job is to be a benefit to those people who have done their time on that particular job. This applies across America in all industries. It is viewed as compensation and a reward that eventually, in time, we all will receive. So instead of the continuous bashing being spewed on this site, try and have the foresight (future) and realize that you will someday also have enough time to choose your shift as well.
Also, when you go to specialized unit and/or are promoted this same senioruty also applies. I have the seniority to pick what I want but I dont have full weekends because I choose not to for my families benefit.

P.S. Ask your family/parents what an advantage seniority meant to them over the years in their jobs and you will probably be suprised by their answer.

in response, the whole 12/10 shift proposal was never even brought to any of the members or was kept to a "select" few. who does this proposal benefit? i would venture to say that only the senior officers would be the ones working the 5 10's based on seniority.
.
again just my two cents.

I didnt know that we met recently and the board openly informed us that they are for/against anything.I can tell your a little bit mad and your jumping to alot of conclusions about alot of subjects because we are uninformed and i understand that. I believe that you may have misread a few of the posts and are possibly confused. 634 stated that they havent talked about the shifts yet, so why jump up and down since it hasnt happened,and Im not defending him, hes useless. I agree that we are in the dark but this is a public forum so the next meeting is a better place to vent. You, as a member, have every right to expect that you will be represented, but did you submit a proposal? If so, then I APPLAUD YOU. If not, come up with one that benefits us all, including the db, motors, supervisors etc.. and those seniority guys you dislike. Just so we all understand though, the town can drag this on and schedule meetings when they want and for as long as they want. Also, the 4 10s, like every other benfit you enjoy and think you have earned, was a benefit that our secretive board secured in writing in our contract , unlike any other city/town.

[DAVIE634]

the fact that you would suggest three 12 hours shifts in one day shows that you dont understand the concept.

Actually, I do understand the concept. What YOU don't understand, guest 100 is what the town wants. We have been told by the town that they want a "more efficient" department. The three 12's per day would staff the most coverage during the busiest times of the day as well as the overlap between bravo going 10-7 and alpha going 10-8. This is just yet another option.

Personally, I am against the 12's as a union member. As a board member I have to go along with whatever the board submits that is good for the membership as a whole. This does not preclude me from submitting a schedule that I would want to work, just as anyone else has the opportunity to do the same.

tsd

guest 100 please call me, i'm sure you can get my number if you don't already have it. I would like to get some ideas from you as well as feedback

I was never a fan of 634, but I can tell you I changed my mind on him and now I understand him. He is doing a good job for US. TSD keep up the good work and drive on. The rest of the board is good. You men need to know people out here say THANK YOU........... Keep it going...... and thanks for having our backs.

Because of on-going talks? Isn't that even more of a reason that we should have a meeting? I thought that is what the meetings were for, to update the membership. Or was the meeting postponed because 676 and 634 were scared to hold the meeting alone?

It seems that these two people are not looking out for the membership. They are going to the brass and trying to come up with a shift schedule that suits them, ie. 20 people on 10 hour shift and the rest of road patrol on 12s. That seems ONE WAY to me.

What are they trying to pull over on us? Is it true that they are only looking out for themselves? It sure seems that way.

Are you basing this on fact, or just stirring? Nice try though because the "brass" doesnt involve themselves in our schedules so you must be grasping for straws with bad days off.

[quote="Anonymous"][quote="one way"]Because of on-going talks? Isn't that even more of a reason that we should have a meeting? I thought that is what the meetings were for, to update the membership. Or was the meeting postponed because 676 and 634 were scared to hold the meeting alone?

676 and 634 scared? SSShhhhhhhhh! Hear that? It's the whispering of all you so called tough guys whispering in the hallway about how this sucks and that's not fair. Sound off like you GOT A PAIR! Seems to me that these seem to be the only two guys that aren't selling out to the administration and aren't afraid to hide it. OH NO! Another Davie cop just got wrongfully terminated. That's screwed up. Don't talk too loud though, the Chief might hear you. Seems like every time the Chief's double chin gets bigger, road patrols testicles are get smaller!

Hey, anyone know where I sign up for the Kevin K. home patrol position?

Are you basing this on fact, or just stirring? Nice try though because the "brass" doesnt involve themselves in our schedules so you must be grasping for straws with bad days off.[/quote]

You are either brass yourself or blind if you don't think the Chief's double chin doesn't cover all aspects like a blanket.

[DAVIE634]

I was never a fan of 634, but I can tell you I changed my mind on him and now I understand him. He is doing a good job for US. TSD keep up the good work and drive on. The rest of the board is good. You men need to know people out here say THANK YOU........... Keep it going...... and thanks for having our backs.

Thanx' Mom!

I was never a fan of 634, but I can tell you I changed my mind on him and now I understand him. He is doing a good job for US. TSD keep up the good work and drive on. The rest of the board is good. You men need to know people out here say THANK YOU........... Keep it going...... and thanks for having our backs.

Thanx' Mom!

Not your MOM, Just someone who cares about the BIG PICTURE. You and the rest of the FOP board are doing a GREAT job. Thanks. Shift is no matter to me( I understood coming into the job that things change), I just want to see some $$$$$ in our pockets.

[DAVIE634]

I hear ya' "been here", just having a little fun. Thanx for the support. I know that we can't please all the people all the time.

tsd

[DAVIE634]

Union meeting tomorrow 08/21/07 @ 1800 hours.

Well ................... updates ????

Well ................... updates ????

Get off your a$$ and ask someone who went...if you can find them.

well,.....no next time go

go the show was great